/prog/ - S-expression HTML as Standard

Name: Anonymous 2013-09-17 13:25

Who the fuck thought it would be a good idea to use opening and closing tags as DA STANDARD for SHITML? Are the people at W3 dumb?

For those who don't know what I'm talking about,
look how ugly and unnecessarily long HTML is.

<html>
<head>MY WEBSITE</head>
<title>MY WEBSITE</title>
<body>
<p>THIS KIND OF MARKUP IS <b><i><u>SHIT QUALITY</u></i></b></p>
</body>
</html>

But compared to the S-expressions

(html   (head "MY WEBSITE")
        (title "MY WEBSITE")
        (body (p "THIS MARKUP IS" (b.i.u "SATORI QUALITY"))))

It looks far cleaner and makes your eyes feel right at home. It's easier to parse and won't take up as a few kilobytes / megabytes (depending on the page) less Internet bandwidth. Sure it has a lot of parenthesis but it's more attractive than the repeating shitstorm of </tags>.

I know there are a lot of implementations to this but there should be one STANDARD to rule them all. The next version of HTML in the standard should be something like this.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 20:37

>>40
In practise, do most people instruct their clients to render Usenet posts in the same manner as a web page? If not, Usenet is only as good as plaintext email and is no good for presentations and hyperlined pages.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 20:44

>>41
Who gives a shit what most people do?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 21:13

>>41
I just said the moderns do. Browse some and try 'em. You have also used email with HTML documents and other attachments, right? So much so there are now webmail clients. The stupidity of that is beyond me, but it proves the point: UI for clients can easily adapt the MIME files however they wish, in whatever medium of choice. Heck, even in hotmail and gmail you can view ppt, pdfs, and video!

>>42
I know right[i]![/i] We just force them anyways:

To view this page properly, you need to have an SexpML render on your browser. You might want to consider installing one of these:

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 21:32

>>43
What if Scheme were the default scripting language of the web, and SexpML were the default markup language? Imagine all the money Mozilla would have thrown at it. Imagine the faster-than-C JIT compilers. Imagine the amount of libraries it would have. Imagine all the people using it for their epic Reddit clones!

Wait a minute, that last thing sounds awful. Writing a browser from scratch is a better idea. Hopefully Hacker Jews won't hear about it.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 21:40

>>44
With EME being pushed by TBL himself, people actually started removing the dust from gopher. It's a ridiculous amount of optimism, but this might be the chance Scheme needed.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 22:13

>>44

Imagine the faster-than-C JIT compilers. Imagine the amount of libraries it would have. Imagine all the people using it for their epic Reddit clones

I wouldn't run compiled-to-native code from the web.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 22:22

>>46
Do you use Noscript?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 22:34

>>47
It's not elinks-compatible.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 2:17

>>44
That was the goal of Javascript in the Netscape era, when the Managers violated it:
https://brendaneich.com/2008/04/popularity/

Blame the Netscape Managers for that big blunt that plagues the world.

>>46
I'd built it so that you have a choice. Plus, Scheme was great to run interpreted, like JS is today.

>>47,48
No, he just write the following in his features.conf:
CONFIG_SCRIPTING_SPIDERMONKEY=no

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 3:19

>>49
A lot of JS gets ``accelerated'' today and it's a big source of security holes. What I want is a decent, very simple bytecode specification that can be interpreted easily and safely, crafted in a way that you would really have to really go out of your way to fuck up implementing an interpreter for it. Also very little to none interfacing with native code; none of that DOM shit with hundreds or thousands of C procedures interacting with javashit code.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 4:19

>>50
I am not so sure if you are:
https://bbs.progrider.org/prog/read/1380816422/37

But this guy answered for you:
https://bbs.progrider.org/prog/read/1380816422/40

Plus, VMs are a dime a dozen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_machine#List_of_virtual_machine_software
pick your favorite, and embed your language in it. Scheme implementations have had them for ages. Here is a minute comparison (like 1%):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_application_virtual_machines

Give me a couple of days, and I can write a standard. Unless you want to write one first. Be sure to make the headers secure enough for clients to reject server requests, esp. for does that do not want to yield identifying info.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 19:49

netscape

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/project-code-rush/

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 22:07

>>52
I love that movie.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 22:29

>>52

hairy mexican woman with a deep voice and a jewish skrillex along with a bunch of bald white men

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 22:52

>>54
Who are you quoting?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 0:15

I can't understand for the life of me why you people insist that SGML-like languages are ``fine''.

"Oh, HTML sure is utter shit, but SGML is good".
"The W3C are a bunch of retards. Instead of HTML-shitbucket, they should have stayed with SGML-turd".

Can someone explain this reasoning? I've seen it quite frequently here. I just don't find any reason to think <tag></> is not something a retarded nigger kike would come up with.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 1:07

>>56
Neither do I, but this is awesome:
https://bbs.progrider.org/prog/read/1380816422/46
http://www.w3.org/TR/webdatabase/

For everything else, I use MIME and org-mode. I should also make a troff implementation for the hell of it.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 1:19

>>57
Am I missing something, or is this just SQLite?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 1:33

>>58
Its a API standard that was dropped by W3C for database creation and management on a web browser, for making other datasets, like cookies, JSON files, flash balls, java bytecode, and the kind. The main reasoning behind the dropped is because the only implementation that supported it was SQLite at the time. No one else pitch in others, like SmallSQL , H2 DBMS, LevelDB, Kyoto Cabinet, LevelDB, LMDB, or Berkeley DB. But it was a great idea they should have kept, like they have kept Javascript, CSS, and HTML!

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 17:16

>>59
I honestly don't see why storing absolutely all your data (presentation format and content) in an obfuscated format you have to access through an API is a good idea. Also, it was made by the W3C, and that's not exactly a signal of good design.

SQLite for the data that needs to be in a database and SexpML for the rest is fine.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-09 6:38

>>60
I'd use it for housekeeping and data (cookie management?). The rest of the document files would be sent on regular HTTPS, like any document. But with the client side scripting, it is a greate way to have the client self-organize the response, with a well formatted database.

Optionally, you can extend the database to keep all types of data, so that the user has only one or 2 files to keep per site/page/domain/etc.. At the least we agree. Maybe make a server option for clients to ask the type of formatted response they want.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-02 16:51

>>4

Opening and closing tags aren't that bad

FUCK
OFF

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-02 23:01

Polish notation is harder for plebians to parse than simple tags.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 3:20

Something I've noticed among most (all?) popular languages is that they are easy to format with dumb text editors. My first experience doing anything resembling programming was creating a homepage in Microsoft Notepad. At the time, the thought of indenting my HTML for readability had never occurred to me, and I wrote my HTML with 1 tag per line (with the exception of formatting tags like <b>. But had I been aware, it would have been very easy for me to format, even in Notepad: just hit Tab a few times before you type.

Which I ended up doing in one of my first brushes with "real" programming, C++. Writing "guess the number" games and other trivial examples out of a book (before it went waaay too far over my 10~ year old head with C++ arcana) in Notepad, Tab'ing away at every new line. Of course, when I discovered "real" text editors and their ability to auto-indent newlines, I was overjoyed, but nevertheless I had been undeterred by the tedium of formatting HTML and C++ by hand for a few years.

Several years later I discovered SICP through /prog/, and with it, Lisp. I didn't quite "get it" the first time, thinking of the book as any other introductory programming book but with needlessly complicated and math-heavy examples, and though of Lisp as just another programming language, but with strange formatting. It certainly didn't help that I didn't have a text editor capable of formatting sexps at the time. Mashing space to line up sexps correctly got old fast, so I used an Algol-like formatting until I gave up on the whole ordeal.

A few years later, I'd come to understand emacs just well enough to make writing Lisp possible, and with that, I was able to truly appreciate the beauty of SICP and Lisp. But how many others like me never made that leap? And how many others like me understood emacs but hated using it so much that they never touched a piece of Lisp code outside SICP ever again? I'd love to write more Lisp, but I think I'd have to write my own text editor and Scheme before I could justify it, so instead I stick with my comfort zone of C.

Likewise, I made a pass at Haskell around that time (again because of /prog/'s memes). Likewise, the strange syntax, formatting, and dependence on emacs and vim turned me off (though in Haskell's case the semantics of a purely functional language and the community's obsession with faux-intellectual formalizations of simple concepts turned me off harder).

Call my an idiot all you like for having bad taste in text editors and programming languages, but my point is that if you need a special text editor to write in a language, it will probably never ever take off amongst the masses of "simpler-minded" programmers that make or break platforms, let alone the non-programmers that once wrote their own homepages in Notepad. So while today we can sit around and bemoan the comparative ugliness of HTML and Javascript, the web as we know it might not exist without their relative ugliness.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 3:34

>>64
What are you talking about? It's incredibly easy to format S-expressions, even in the dumbest of the text editors, like nano, ed or notepad. This is not a valid argument either, since it would be easier to write an hypothetical Lisp-like language on notepad than writing Javashit in Atom.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 4:32

>>65
Formatting SGML in a shitty text editor:
Most people just write it all left-justified anyway, so there's nothing to format.
Including the tag name in the closing tag makes it easy to figure out where you are in the tree, even if you lack indentation to convey the structure.

Formatting C and most Algol-like languages in a shitty text editor:
New scopes and scope-like constructions require an indentation level. Hit tab 1-4 times before you type. If you need more than 4 indentation levels or so, you're probably doing something wrong.

Formatting sexps in a shitty text editor:
Small sexps are inline:
(* 2 4)
More complicated sexps that are split across multiple lines have each parameter indented to the same amount.

(+ (* 3
      (+ (* 2 4)
         (+ 3 5)))
   (+ (- 10 7)
      6))

Spaces are required to properly indent this code. It's a lot easier to indent 1 tab per indentation level than it is to spam the space bar twenty times in the kind of deeply-nested code that Lisp encourages.
If you change a function name, every sub-expression is now improperly aligned, and you will have to realign them manually:

(plus (* 3
         (+ (* 2 4)
            (+ 3 5)))
      (+ (- 10 7)
         6))

And if you don't follow these rules, it quickly becomes extremely difficult to follow your code.
More importantly, shitty editors lack paren matching, so you'll be wasting tons of time manually counting parens and running into subtle bugs when you make mistakes.

This never ever would have flown with the tech-illiterates copying and pasting their way to their first homepage that drove the early web.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 5:07

>>66
Not wanting to use emacs doesn't mean using a shitty editor. The point is that s-exprs are super easy to edit in any basic non-shitty editor.

Also, emacs is shitty.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 5:20

>>67
And my point is that the web became what it is because people could easily make complete pages in fucking garbage like Notepad (or even worse, directly in an HTML form, which come to think of it was what I really did as a kid), which was usually all they had available to them. If you had to find and install anything (which almost certainly involved spending upwards of $100 in those days) and spend more time learning how to format the sexps on top of the document markup already blowing your neophyte mind, it wasn't going to happen for 99% of user/creators.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 5:53

>>68
But the web sucks.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 7:51

This argument is pointless because you can easily make a DSL that outputs the HTML the way you want to without even having to deal with the mark-up yourself.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 14:19

>>68
Don't be a retard, nobody makes webpages in notepad anymore. Why do you think shit like ``Zen Coding'' and many HTML/CSS/JS preprocessors exist? It can't be because they're beautiful and easy to use.

Why do you insist on HTML being easier to format, if you want form an injection from HTML to S-expressions? Replace <tag> with (tag and </tag> with ). Then your notepad webpage becomes

(b 
    (i
        (o text)
    )
)

which looks absolutely retarded but is easy to follow even in fucking ed. It's not like your left-aligned HTML looks better anyway.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 14:35

>>71
if you can form*

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 21:58

>>71
I never said HTML or Javascript is superior (believe me, I hate the web just as much as you fags). But there are people ITT bemoaning Tim Berners-Lee, Eich, and Netscape for not giving us the pure Lisp web from the start, and I'm just saying that the web probably would have never taken off if they had designed it that way. It probably would have been supplanted by some ugly corporate Java AIDS that ex-C++ programmers and Bobby making his first webpage would find more intuitive.

And yeah, I know no one writes straight HTML anymore, but they sure as hell still write Javascript. And even today the web appers would probably be scared away by the sexps.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 22:51

>>73
Do you not think that web appers are just comfortable with that shit because it's what they've been using all these years? As in, if javascript was a lisp dialect in the first place, nothing else would be different. In that universe, web appers might be scared away by braces and K&R indentation.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 22:55

>>73,74
A proper web wouldn't have any appers working on it. A proper web is one made for EXPERT PROGRAMMERS by EXPERT PROGRAMMERS.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 23:15

>>75
The fuck you talkin'bout nigger? The web was made so writers could publish documents, not all this fancy schmancy shit.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-04 2:49

>>76
The web was made so manly military men could trade secrets.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-04 8:39

>>73
How in the fuck do you faggots thing are people going to be scared away by (b foo), when every simpleton shitcoder accepted <b>foo</b> without complaint?

Get off my /prog/. It's supposed to be shit, but you're an insult to shit.

Name: Anonymous 2015-11-04 9:07

Stop wasting time discussing this subject. The ship has long sailed and HTML will not change to accomodate the inconsequential whining of some BBS. Gzip compression takes care of the worst of it.

If you want you can always use JADE when you're "programming" (upmarking) or write your own S-EXP => HTML preprocessor if your autism compells you to.

Name: Jade Dream 2015-11-04 14:20

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S-expression HTML as Standard

1 Name: Anonymous 2013-09-17 13:25

41 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 20:37

42 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 20:44

43 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 21:13

44 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 21:32

45 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 21:40

46 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 22:13

47 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 22:22

48 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-06 22:34

49 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 2:17

50 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 3:19

51 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 4:19

52 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 19:49

53 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 22:07

54 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 22:29

55 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-07 22:52

56 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 0:15

57 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 1:07

58 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 1:19

59 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 1:33

60 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-08 17:16

61 Name: Anonymous 2013-10-09 6:38

62 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-02 16:51

63 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-02 23:01

64 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 3:20

65 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 3:34

66 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 4:32

67 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 5:07

68 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 5:20

69 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 5:53

70 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 7:51

71 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 14:19

72 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 14:35

73 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 21:58

74 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 22:51

75 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 22:55

76 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-03 23:15

77 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-04 2:49

78 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-04 8:39

79 Name: Anonymous 2015-11-04 9:07

80 Name: Jade Dream 2015-11-04 14:20