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* Topic for #haskell-ops is: [#haskell moderators : http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/IRC_channel/Management - Users are welcome to join for specific discussion but asked not to idle ]
* Topic for #haskell-ops set by glguy (Tue Dec 18 17:12:59 2012)
<vanila> Requesting unbanned
<vanila> Mauke is harassing some newbie with information that isn't useful
<mauke> technically you're not banned, you're temporarily muted
<vanila> Cale copumpkin jmcarthur can you help me please?
<vanila> mauke is abusing his op to bully me for helping a beginner
<mauke> I don't think that's very nice
<mauke> <Fuuzetsu> vanila: I don't think you're helping
<mauke> I don't think what you did was helping
<vanila> mauke, I have him on /ignore because he was extremely rude to me in the past
<vanila> mauke, This is probably related to why he is saying that against me
<mauke> maybe, maybe not
<mauke> I have nothing against you personally. I just thought you were adding noise, not signal
<mauke> and at least one other person agrees, apparently
<vanila> <vanila> mauke, you are overloading him with conflicting information
<vanila> * hexagoxel_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
<vanila> <mauke> vanila: good
<vanila> You are intentionally confusing him by going on about useless information and not cooperating with others
<mauke> no, I'm trying to get him to stop talking and start thinking
<vanila> Can you unmute me now please?
<mauke> I don't see what was conflicting, though
<vanila> now can I please talk to an different op?
<dibblego> I think saying outright false things to people trying to learn is reprehensible and one's own ignorance is no excuse.
<vanila> Hi dibblego is that addressed to me
<dibblego> It is addressed to anyone who might consider the opinion of others on the matter.
<vanila> ill wait to talk to a different op
* hexagoxel (~hexagoxel@kiel-5f77b225.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined
<Saizan> mauke: this might be for another discussion but "trying to get people to think" is not always the smart choice, often it's better to elaborate about what you know instead, so people can see what you thought
<mauke> not sure how that applies here
<Saizan> i haven't read the whole thing with Aruro, but it seems it was another case of miscommunication due to lack of providing enough context to the other person
<Saizan> so the thing dragged on for a while, to the point where it gets more likely someone else is going to interfere
<mauke> I wouldn't say enough context. I think their ideas themselves were muddled
<Saizan> but that's exactly the situation where it's most useful to elaborate on them and show where and how
<Saizan> rather then prod at the mud
<mauke> eh?
<Saizan> mauke: you're doing it now too, ask an actual question rather than "eh?"
<mauke> I don't understand what you wanted Aruro to do
<mauke> ok, still not a question
<Saizan> that's still better
<Saizan> but i was talking about what you could've done, not Aruro
<mauke> I could've kicked Aruro out when they refused to explain what they meant by "property" for the third time
<Saizan> or you could've considered a couple of possibilities and explained yourself wrt to those
<mauke> looking back on this channel I'm going to disagree with all vanila said about me: "you are overloading him" (I don't think so) "with conflicting information" (conflicting how?)
<mauke> "You are intentionally confusing him" (I'm not) "by going on about useless information" (don't see that, either)
<hexagoxel> "oh, i disagree with somebody in chat, lets exert my op powers"
<hexagoxel> at least you should have warned
<vanila> <vanila> <vanila> mauke, you are overloading him with conflicting information
<vanila> <vanila> * hexagoxel_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
<vanila> <vanila> <mauke> vanila: good
<vanila> When you said good in response to you are overloading him, that means you are glad that you are managing to confuse him
<vanila> that's why I said you are intentionally confusing him
<vanila> earlier I said to him:
<vanila> <vanila> Aruro, What you described needs subtyping, but haskell doesnt' have subtyping
<vanila> <vanila> Aruro, You cannot use typeclasses for this
<mauke> hexagoxel: how?
<vanila> and then you said, uncooperatively
<vanila> <mauke> vanila: there you go again with your subtyping
<mauke> yes
<vanila> This is confusing to Aruro because people are telling him different things, and then some of those people are telling each other they are wrong
<mauke> yes
<Saizan> vanila: well, that's part of life
<mauke> so why are you telling him stuff others disagree with? :-)
<hexagoxel> mauke: grab op, say "this discussion seems ineffective, Aruro still has not explained what .. means; please stop replying"
<vanila> <mauke> Aruro is just trying to annoy people
<hexagoxel> mauke: "how?"
<hexagoxel> how what?
<vanila> This shows agian that you're not trying to help him, and explains why you'd get on against people like me who were trying to actually help him
<mauke> hexagoxel: warned
<hexagoxel> are you asking me in what way you could have warned people before applying -q's ?
<mauke> hexagoxel: yes
<mauke> well, +q's
* [hexagoxel] (~hexagoxel@kiel-5f77b225.pool.mediaWays.net): hexagoxel
* [hexagoxel] #haskell-ops #idris #haskell
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<hexagoxel> like, by saying "if you don't stop the discussion, i will consider +q's"
<dibblego> I assume, "there you go with subtyping again" is in response to the fact that it is false and that other false things were being said.
<mauke> vanila: it could also be an attempt to make Aruro realise they're coming across as an asshat
<dibblego> which, is extremely unhelpful, because it is not obvious to a learner that it is false
<vanila> 04:25:53 <mauke> I think you don't know Haskell and you're making shit up
<dibblego> it may not be the best way to deal with falsehoods though
<Saizan> dibblego: it's not really false though
<vanila> talking like this is harmful to beginners, he is asking because he doesn't know haskell and wants to learn
<vanila> Hi dibblego, it was rude earlier when you were implying i said something "outright wrong" but being cryptic and standoffish about it so that it's impossible for me to defend myself
<hexagoxel> why does an op not know how to warn people? this is really disappointing.
<dibblego> no, I understand and take that specific point back -- it is not completely false
<mauke> <vanila> Aruro, You cannot use typeclasses for this <mauke> depending on what exactly "this" is <mauke> which everyone just kind of assumes <vanila> Aruro, What you described needs subtyping, but haskell doesnt' have subtyping <mauke> same for "subtyping" <mauke> vanila: yes, that's your preconceived notion about what Aruro wants
<vanila> I definitely think mauke abused his op to bully me, im upset to be pushed out of the discussion and silenced without being told to stop or anything
<mauke> that was what happened before the "again with your subtyping" comment
<mauke> looks like my warnings were too subtle
<vanila> mauke, I taught Aruro earlier about the different between :: and ==, and that his Vowel subtype of Char is not expressible in haskell
<mauke> his "Vowel" was not a subtype
<Saizan> mauke: you generally say too little for people to easily understand what you mean
<mauke> Saizan: point
<mauke> vanila: you based your whole explanation on the subtyping idea, with no justification. no one else thought it was about subtyping either, which is why they didn't want to "cooperate"
<vanila> mauke, by saying "no one else" you are inventing a fiction where everyone in the world disagrees with me - and is on your side
<vanila> this is not a rational discussion, you are continuating to be excessively authoritarian and opressive
<mauke> hmm... no, I'm not
<mauke> "no one else thinks it was about subtyping" doesn't imply they're actively disagreeing with you
<hexagoxel> mauke: could you give an example of any warning to vanila that was too subtle?
<mauke> hexagoxel: the stuff I pasted, then the "again with your subtyping" thing vanila pasted, then the Fuuzetsu thing
<Saizan> mauke: yeah, that is really not a warning that you're going to use your op, that's mostly a warning you're getting fed up :)
<hexagoxel> "stuff i pasted" is very specific
<hexagoxel> and i don't agree, that is no warning, subtle or not
<mauke> Saizan: yeah, I don't consider +q to be a big thing
<Saizan> it kinda is though
<vanila> http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=19064502&timestamp=1410994944#t1410994944 This is why I don't get any messags from Fuuzetsu
<mauke> anyway, I agreed with Fuuzetsu that you were doing more harm than good at that point
<hexagoxel> whether vanila's explanation in the direction of subtyping has justification also does not matter. people say things on irc without justification. that's no reason for op actions
<vanila> someone that Fuuzetsu says which I didn't even see does not count as a warning from an op
<vanila> I can justify that my explanation wrt. subtyping is correct
<mauke> I saw it
<mauke> vanila: that's bit late now
<vanila> that is why I was trying to help this beginner in #haskell by telling them about it
<Saizan> mauke: anyhow, i'd strongly suggest for next time to take the time to say something like "if you want ... then ..., if you want .. instead then ..." so that the situation is resolved faster and you can address the points of the people assuming a specific wanting too
<vanila> mauke, You cannot say this to me - you are the one who reacted too quickly
<mauke> vanila: I reacted too slowly
<vanila> You could have asked me to justify it rather than unfairly silencing me without any warning
<vanila> If you did not understand what I was saying I would have no qualms explaining it
<mauke> I understood, I just think you're wrong
<vanila> similar with dibblego except it was clear from his cryptic standoffish way ofspeaking he didn't want to engage with me
<hexagoxel> mauke: you don't +q people because they are wrong
<mauke> especially in retrospective where apparently Data.Set is a good solution
<vanila> I don't mind if you thnk im wrong, I am always open to discussion and correcting mistakes
<vanila> I am saying that you treated me unfairly
<mauke> hexagoxel: no, I +q people when they are persistently wrong and try to teach newbies
<vanila> You abused your op to bully me into silence when all I was doing is helping a beginner, who you had given up on and were confusing him on purpose with by overloading and conflicting with other people helping
<Saizan> vanila: i don't believe mauke had any intention of confusing him
<mauke> "given up on" is debatable
<vanila> mauke, I maintain that I was not wrong - your subjective judgement about this isn't enough to silence someone
<mauke> I wasn't confusing him on purpose
<mauke> I wasn't overloading him
<vanila> <vanila> <mauke> Aruro is just trying to annoy people
<vanila> this is where you gave up on him
<mauke> I was "conflicting" with your "help" because I don't think what you said was helping
<vanila> You made it clear you don't think he is interested in learning, he is just trying to annoy people
<mauke> vanila: don't explain my thought process to me
<dibblego> or mine
<vanila> dibblego, am I wrong? Why would you speak to me so rudely otherwise?
<vanila> dibblego, I think you made it very clear you just wanted to make a blanket statement about me, in an indirect enough way as to obviate yourself from backing it up
<dibblego> this is off the wall
<mauke> "glguy, last time I asked for help there shapr was very nasty me and after I left to escape it he continued to insult me in here"
<mauke> yeah, I wonder why all those people are so nasty to you
<mauke> (sarcasm)
<mauke> shapr, Fuuzetsu, mauke, dibblego, ...
<vanila> now you are blaming the victim
<mauke> no, I'm not
<vanila> bring up this bad history is probabl a good way to escalate this into getting me in more trouble
<dibblego> at no point was I "nasty" to anybody — I made a statement, then another incorrect one, then a retraction
<vanila> that's a clever but evil way to continue to bully me
<mauke> vanila: ? you brought it up
<dibblego> I am not going to fall for this persecution complex nonsense
<dibblego> I'm out, good luck with it
<vanila> <dibblego> I think saying outright false things to people trying to learn is reprehensible and one's own ignorance is no excuse.
<vanila> <vanila> Hi dibblego is that addressed to me
<vanila> <dibblego> It is addressed to anyone who might consider the opinion of others on the matter.
<vanila> I was referring to this dibblego
<mauke> yeah, I also disagree with the "bully" thing
<dibblego> yeah sure bye
<dibblego> mauke is being way too generous with +q
<mauke> temporary +q - it only lasted like 10 minutes
<vanila> mauke, telling me "have a nice life" is basically a threat, and then following me into another channel to tell me "be nice.. or else" rubs salt in the wound.
<mauke> it's not a threat
<mauke> wtf?
<Saizan> vanila: you are reading way too much negativity into those
<vanila> Saizan, after being treated the way he treated me it came across very nasty
<mauke> I was disagreeing with you but I could still sort of see your point
<mauke> but now that I've read the chat log you linked, I've lost all sympathy
<vanila> mauke, as I said "bring up this bad history is probabl a good way to escalate this into getting me in more trouble" "a clever but evil way to continue to bully me"
<mauke> yes, you said that WHEN YOU YOURSELF BROUGHT IT UP
<vanila> it's great that you were able to bring up history about me to slander me into being wrong no matter how justified I am
<mauke> hello? is this thing on?
<Saizan> vanila: really, try to read stuff more positively, it's hard to really tell the tone on irc but there's no reason to assume the worst
<vanila> ty Saizan
* hexagoxel (~hexagoxel@kiel-5f77b225.pool.mediaWays.net) has left ("Ex-Chat")
<mauke> heh, reading backwards it looks like that was another case of vanila giving bad advice to beginners
<mauke> vanila: you didn't even give Fuuzetsu a warning before calling for ops

>>39
the human collective lease

08:56:54 <vanila> Wow https://lobste.rs/s/gsitxb/why_everyone_hates_go/comments/yco3k8#c_yco3k8
08:57:01 <vanila> what a rude person
08:57:11 <vanila> insane
08:58:39 <Cale> Sornaensis: sure :)
08:59:08 <Cale> vanila: Who is rude?
08:59:26 <vanila> bitemyapp "Please leave me alone now." etc.
08:59:38 <Cale> Is that rude?
08:59:44 <MP2E> we.., at least he said please
08:59:46 <MP2E> well*
09:00:09 <MP2E> was a bit of a snappy response though :P
09:00:24 <Cale> It just sounds like he's frustrated with other people arguing about his decisions. I don't know if that's rude. Maybe it's a bit impatient.
09:00:33 <vanila> fair enough :)
09:01:41 <vanila> "it’s trying my patience to be civil right now." -- seems very "go away, I don't want to talk to you. I'm very this close to getting nasty"
09:02:51 <simpson> vanila: Whatever. It happens. Leave it.
09:03:06 <vanila> weird how emotional people get about technical things like unsafePerformIO
09:03:22 <Cale> Yeah, there's really no need to get very emotional here
09:04:25 <Cale> I have seen bitemyapp get into it a bit from time to time, but I guess that's just how his personality is :)
09:05:13 <simpson> vanila: Have you ever heard the phrase "purity is strength?"
09:05:21 <vanila> i don't recognzie it
09:05:26 <bitemyapp> vanila: I wanted to be left alone
09:05:36 <bitemyapp> vanila: is that an unreasonable request? I have notifications turned on in lobste.rs
09:05:50 <bitemyapp> vanila: if they want to debate design decisions they should evince some understanding of the service they're debating.
09:05:58 <Cale> bitemyapp: Usually if I want to be left alone, I just won't reply :)
09:05:59 <bitemyapp> vanila: the comments betrayed an ignorance of the service, which means they were wasting my time.
09:06:05 <Sornaensis> how do I convert an XmlTree back to a String with Hxt
09:06:14 <Cale> But yeah, it's hard to just let people say things that you disagree with :P
09:06:31 <bitemyapp> vanila: I didn't really want to explicitly say in the thread, "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Let me alone until you do."
09:06:38 <bitemyapp> vanila: so I politely (in my mind) requested that they leave me alone.
09:07:04 <bastian__> hey! new to haskell and currently trying to write a parser using attoparsec. question: will it parse the whole file and uppon success return a result with one big list?
09:07:18 <bitemyapp> bastian__: the result is whatever your parser types are.
09:07:40 <bitemyapp> bastian__: http://bitemyapp.com/posts/2014-10-02-parsing-and-rendering-templates-in-haskell.html this only returns [Node] Because I have a parser that returns [Node]
09:07:49 <bitemyapp> bastian__: could've been vector, could've been a tree, could've been anything.
09:08:07 <bastian__> I only want to iterate over the lines and do sth. (insertion into database), not have a final result
09:08:22 <vanila> bitemyapp, are you interested in discussing it here?
09:08:50 <bitemyapp> vanila: if I am rude, how rude is linking the thread saying, "what a rude person" in #haskell?
09:09:08 <bitemyapp> vanila: I said, "Pleave leave me alone now". Do you want me to beg you not talk about me?
09:09:22 <bastian__> here's what I have so far: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144051
09:09:28 <bitemyapp> vanila: I have work to do, coffee to drink. etc etc
09:09:39 <Cale> Sornaensis: There's writeDocumentToString :: ArrowXml a => SysConfigList -> a XmlTree String
09:10:19 <bastian__> don't want to have a Result with a list of Lines, but do sth with each Line, while the parsing is going on
09:10:39 <bitemyapp> bastian__: this isn't going to help you solve your problem (sorry), but for Haskell highlighting of your pastes consider: http://lpaste.net/
09:10:48 <bitemyapp> bastian__: it'll auto-link the paste for you from the bot if you select the channel too.
09:11:03 <bastian__> bitemyapp: thanks, will use that one
09:12:08 <Cale> Sornaensis: HXT makes a lot of really weird design decisions... I'm not entirely sure why it makes a lot of them. It's kind of a shame that it's got to be weird, since it's so comprehensive.
09:12:32 <Cale> For example, the arrows that it uses are actually monads.
09:12:39 <bastian__> http://lpaste.net/112625
09:13:06 <bastian__> (didn't get posted automatically, not sure why)
09:13:06 <volty> it's all about looking stranger than the strangest :)
09:13:18 <dfeuer> Cale, sometimes you make something with a certain abstraction in mind, and forget to look back and notice that it satisfies a stronger one.
09:13:32 <Cale> Well, early versions of the library actually had a monad
09:13:33 <bitemyapp> bastian__: did you select an IRC channel?
09:13:36 <vanila> What are peoples thoughts on the NOINLINE unsafePerformIO create IORef/MVar trick?
09:13:41 <Cale> and for some reason they changed it to use Arrow
09:13:52 <bastian__> bitemyapp: yes, #haskell (here?!)
09:13:52 <bitemyapp> carter: ^^
09:13:59 <dfeuer> Maybe they thought they could optimize something better that way, and then weren't able to or didn't get around to it?
09:14:00 <bitemyapp> bastian__: yeah. huh. let me try.
09:14:05 <carter> bitemyapp: what?
09:14:09 <lpaste> test pasted “test” at http://lpaste.net/112627
09:14:13 <bitemyapp> bastian__: ^^
09:14:16 <bitemyapp> carter: vanila's request.
09:14:21 <Cale> dfeuer: I don't know, perhaps
09:14:22 <bitemyapp> carter: "What are peoples thoughts on the NOINLINE unsafePerformIO create IORef/MVar trick?"
09:14:22 <bastian__> there it is :)
09:14:36 <carter> its kosher
09:14:44 <bitemyapp> vanila: ^^
09:14:47 <bitemyapp> vanila: see that?
09:14:51 <bitemyapp> vanila: can you leave me alone now please?
09:15:19 <Cale> dfeuer: Though their arrow is really terrible, it includes IO and fails the nice extra laws which the Arrows paper disavowed but which you actually need in practice if you want to implement Arrows well.
09:15:34 <volty> the next cute language, maybe haskell++, should rule out the possibility of defining new operators, should eliminate all those weirdy arrowers around :)
09:15:54 <Cale> volty: Well, Arrow is very close to being something quite useful
09:16:18 <volty> let them build it into the language and stop there
09:16:21 <dfeuer> carter, what trick is this? Is it the horrid hack recommended by http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.7.0.1/docs/Control-Concurrent.html ?
09:16:44 <Cale> volty: It's just slightly missing the mark, and as a result, it sort of undermines most of the libraries which would *really* benefit from the abstraction
09:16:59 <vanila> bitemyapp, um kinda scary to randomly PM me
09:17:00 <carter> which line of text in the huge document
09:17:05 <dfeuer> Cale, are chances good of Arrow's resurrection into something better?
09:17:09 <vanila> I haven't said anything to you
09:17:13 <bastian__> I think my question is: how does one do streaming parsing using (atto)parsec?
09:17:17 <Cale> dfeuer: I think so
09:17:31 <dfeuer> And, if so, will that necessitate another change to the class hierarchy?
09:17:52 <Cale> dfeuer: It'll involve refining Arrow into a new bunch of stuff
09:17:57 <dfeuer> carter, search that document for "unsafePerformIO".
09:18:07 <bitemyapp> vanila: the code is fine. Will you leave me alone now?
09:18:18 <Cale> dfeuer: Exactly how you want the hierarchy to look, well, there are a bunch of viable options
09:18:21 <carter> dfeuer: you have to make it NOINLINE
09:18:21 <volty> Cale: i catch and agree. The haskell community should split, and throow out the weird complicators that just complicate for the sake of posing as the only experts that can use & read & modify (???) their code
09:18:33 <Cale> dfeuer: But at the very least, arr needs to be separated out
09:18:37 <bastian__> should I use pipes-attoparsec for that?
09:18:46 <bitemyapp> vanila: are you done taling about other people in IRC? Lesson learned?
09:18:47 <dfeuer> Cale, I don't know nearly enough about these things to have an opinion.
09:19:30 <Sornaensis> does anyone here have extensive knowledge of hxt
09:19:43 <dfeuer> carter, the question is whether that kind of hack is something that should be *encouraged*. It looks more like something that is getting in the way of coming up with the Right Way.
09:19:45 <vanila> children = unsafePerformIO (newMVar []) -- this is pretty weird
09:19:50 <carter> dfeuer: no
09:19:51 <vanila> why isn't newMVar [] done in main?
09:20:00 <volty> dfeuer: i'm not yet up too, but my common sense smells the weirdys that ruin such a nice language
09:20:28 <carter> dfeuer: or at least, I'm skeptical that something better is possible with the semantics we give top level definitions
09:20:35 <carter> and is easy
09:20:36 <carter> sooo
09:20:49 <vanila> carter, you could just pass it as an extra parameter, or a monad
09:20:49 <dfeuer> carter, if the top level definitions have the wrong semantics .....
09:20:51 <carter> no
09:20:56 <carter> it works
09:20:58 <carter> its simple
09:21:08 <carter> you have to propose something that works and is simple
09:21:17 <vanila> no one is arguing that it doesn't work, or that it breaks referential transparency
09:21:25 <carter> no ones arguing period
09:21:27 <vanila> it does work, and it's a safe use of unsafePerformIO
09:21:30 <carter> yup
09:21:35 <carter> agreed
09:21:37 <vanila> but it's really bad code!
09:21:42 <simpson> vanila: How is it bad?
09:21:43 <carter> depends
09:21:57 <carter> vanila: i do agree forcing a globally shared context is lame
09:21:57 <c_wraith> Sornaensis: my knowledge of hxt is best summarized as "too complicated, use something else"
09:22:05 <carter> and sometimes its better to thread a context / handle around
09:22:12 <bitemyapp> carter: it has to be for the service I've got atm until something else is done.
09:22:22 <carter> yeah
09:22:24 <bitemyapp> carter: if you have multiple instances of the service running, you will generate duplicate unique ids.
09:22:31 <carter> well yeah
09:22:32 <bitemyapp> carter: you *cannot* thread around multiple copies of the server state.
09:22:34 <mikeplus64> using unsafePerformIO will also mean you have to mark your module Trustworthy instead of Safe (or just Safe)
09:22:41 <Cale> volty: There's not so much around which is just weird for the sake of being weird
09:22:44 <carter> bitemyapp: unless you give each context a different prefix :)
09:22:55 <bitemyapp> carter: not in the semantics of the id service for a reason.
09:22:57 <bitemyapp> carter: otherwise, yes.
09:23:03 <carter> i kno
09:23:04 <bitemyapp> carter: the "prefix" is the MAC address. it's unique per MAC.
09:23:04 <Cale> volty: There are usually reasons for all the design decisions that people make, and some things are a matter of taste
09:23:09 <bitemyapp> so until I do something to make mutex happen for each MAC address, I have to keep it singleton.
09:23:14 <carter> bitemyapp: i'm not talking about black tip
09:23:15 <carter> i know you are
09:23:17 <carter> :)
09:23:57 <bitemyapp> carter: but that's not how an adversarial conversation partner will use it.
09:24:04 <bitemyapp> carter: they'll quote it as if it was about blacktip.
09:24:09 <carter> hah
09:24:11 <carter> well
09:24:25 <carter> if someone misquotes me, woe betide them :)
09:25:31 <vanila> simpson, it's just bad style to use something that breaks one of the core priciples of the language
09:25:42 <carter> not always
09:25:46 <carter> depends on the use caes
09:25:55 <carter> if the lib is meant to be an "application"
09:26:04 <bitemyapp> vanila: so you're saying Simon Marlow and Bryan O'Sullivan's code is bad?
09:26:06 <carter> thats very different from if its meant to be a lib for other peoples applications
09:26:08 <xplat> Cale: i still think Arrow is a legit abstraction, with the effect ordering and all, but i'd still like to see the versions without arr get some kind of standard status since they're good abstractions too
09:26:13 <carter> everyone be nice
09:26:23 <volty> often reinventing the wheel: you just css & xpath access ... but you have to fight with the damn arrows around // the parsing of xml is done in other languages, enough to copy a/the clean interface, but we are about inventing a «intelligent wheels» - to study, then use, and then remain stucked because you can't pipe certain condittions
09:26:27 <vanila> bitemyapp: are you happy to engage in discussion with me now?
09:26:30 <simpson> vanila: Haskell provides no way to instantiate modules multiple times with parameterization.
09:26:38 <simpson> vanila: Thus, *Haskell itself* encourages this bad style.
09:26:48 <carter> yes/no
09:26:48 <xplat> Cale: it's kind of unfortunate though that the flagship arrow user is hxt which shouldn't be using arrows at all
09:26:49 <volty> could be (as you say), i'll keep reading and trying to use
09:27:06 <carter> xplat: lets patch ... hxt .... wait no its tooo much code
09:27:06 <Cale> xplat: Well, the real flagship is Yampa

Purity is strength

que le Dieu vengeur me cède sa place pour punir les méchants!

There are a plethora of laws encrypted in the Torah. The cipher is the 13 (or 7 or 32) middos of Derash.
Rashbam shemos 3:15 uses א"ת ב"ש
The nation known as ששך in Yirmiyahu 25:26 is commonly (see p. 207) understood to be a cipher [or pseudo-cipher] for the nation בבל, using א"ת ב"ש as the method of encoding.
On the back of a mezuzah there are written the letters כוזו במוכסז כוזו, which is a Caesar cipher (with a shift of 1) for the names of Hashem in the first verse of Shema.
The entire Torah has many hidden codes inside .

>>45

Does Torah explain how to make a lot of monies?

>>45
WHERE'S MY DAMN CHICKEN CAESAR CIPHER ALREADY, YOU NO-GOOD BUM?

I've worked with a million vanilas. Manipulative little shit disturbers who like to peel someone off of the pack and ostracize them. Note how bitemyapp tried to PM vanila to have a conversation about [NOT HASKELL] in private, and she turned it into a "creepy" thing to do.

>>48
Seriously dude? he was acting like a complete psychopath, 100% refused to get on their level at all. Grep should help:
08:56:54 <vanila> Wow https://lobste.rs/s/gsitxb/why_everyone_hates_go/comments/yco3k8#c_yco3k8
08:57:01 <vanila> what a rude person
08:57:11 <vanila> insane
08:59:26 <vanila> bitemyapp "Please leave me alone now." etc.
09:00:33 <vanila> fair enough :)
09:01:41 <vanila> "it?EUR(TM)s trying my patience to be civil right now." -- seems very "go away, I don't want to talk to you. I'm very this close to getting nasty"
09:03:06 <vanila> weird how emotional people get about technical things like unsafePerformIO
09:05:21 <vanila> i don't recognzie it
09:05:26 <bitemyapp> vanila: I wanted to be left alone
09:05:36 <bitemyapp> vanila: is that an unreasonable request? I have notifications turned on in lobste.rs
09:05:50 <bitemyapp> vanila: if they want to debate design decisions they should evince some understanding of the service they're debating.
09:05:59 <bitemyapp> vanila: the comments betrayed an ignorance of the service, which means they were wasting my time.
09:06:31 <bitemyapp> vanila: I didn't really want to explicitly say in the thread, "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Let me alone until you do."
09:06:38 <bitemyapp> vanila: so I politely (in my mind) requested that they leave me alone.
09:08:22 <vanila> bitemyapp, are you interested in discussing it here?
09:08:50 <bitemyapp> vanila: if I am rude, how rude is linking the thread saying, "what a rude person" in #haskell?
09:09:08 <bitemyapp> vanila: I said, "Pleave leave me alone now". Do you want me to beg you not talk about me?
09:09:28 <bitemyapp> vanila: I have work to do, coffee to drink. etc etc
09:13:36 <vanila> What are peoples thoughts on the NOINLINE unsafePerformIO create IORef/MVar trick?
09:13:52 <bitemyapp> carter: ^^
09:14:00 <bitemyapp> bastian__: yeah. huh. let me try.
09:14:13 <bitemyapp> bastian__: ^^
09:14:16 <bitemyapp> carter: vanila's request.
09:14:22 <bitemyapp> carter: "What are peoples thoughts on the NOINLINE unsafePerformIO create IORef/MVar trick?"
09:14:44 <bitemyapp> vanila: ^^
09:14:47 <bitemyapp> vanila: see that?
09:14:51 <bitemyapp> vanila: can you leave me alone now please?
09:16:59 <vanila> bitemyapp, um kinda scary to randomly PM me
09:17:09 <vanila> I haven't said anything to you
09:18:07 <bitemyapp> vanila: the code is fine. Will you leave me alone now?
09:18:46 <bitemyapp> vanila: are you done taling about other people in IRC? Lesson learned?
09:19:45 <vanila> children = unsafePerformIO (newMVar []) -- this is pretty weird
09:19:51 <vanila> why isn't newMVar [] done in main?
09:20:49 <vanila> carter, you could just pass it as an extra parameter, or a monad
09:21:17 <vanila> no one is arguing that it doesn't work, or that it breaks referential transparency
09:21:27 <vanila> it does work, and it's a safe use of unsafePerformIO
09:21:37 <vanila> but it's really bad code!
09:22:12 <bitemyapp> carter: it has to be for the service I've got atm until something else is done.
09:22:24 <bitemyapp> carter: if you have multiple instances of the service running, you will generate duplicate unique ids.
09:22:32 <bitemyapp> carter: you *cannot* thread around multiple copies of the server state.
09:22:55 <bitemyapp> carter: not in the semantics of the id service for a reason.
09:22:57 <bitemyapp> carter: otherwise, yes.
09:23:04 <bitemyapp> carter: the "prefix" is the MAC address. it's unique per MAC.
09:23:09 <bitemyapp> so until I do something to make mutex happen for each MAC address, I have to keep it singleton.
09:23:57 <bitemyapp> carter: but that's not how an adversarial conversation partner will use it.
09:24:04 <bitemyapp> carter: they'll quote it as if it was about blacktip.
09:25:31 <vanila> simpson, it's just bad style to use something that breaks one of the core priciples of the language
09:26:04 <bitemyapp> vanila: so you're saying Simon Marlow and Bryan O'Sullivan's code is bad?
09:26:27 <vanila> bitemyapp: are you happy to engage in discussion with me now?

He would have started shit in PM and then used it to get them banned or something.

09:25:31 <vanila> simpson, it's just bad style to use something that breaks one of the core priciples of the language
09:26:04 <bitemyapp> vanila: so you're saying Simon Marlow and Bryan O'Sullivan's code is bad?

Hahaha, Haskellers don't give a shit about breaking purity. Because Harper was right: you can't get anything useful done in Haskell without unsafePerformIO.

Stop reminding me of these people. Fuck why do people use irc. Half the conversation is politics concerning the roles played in prior conversations and what people meant when they said what and how they felt when they said what. It's so annoying and irrelevant.

>>51
Sounds like you go on shitty channels.

>>52
Channels like #haskell?

>>53
apparently

>>49
No, he's an asocial person, and vanila is a manipulative little shit who will use his social retardation to play the victim. Look, believe what you want, I don't give a flying fuck about any of these retards.

>>55
Where are you getting this? projecting? she hardly said anything except asking if he was ready to discuss the issue as equals (since he kept saying leave me along and then "proving her wrong")

Vanila is a truly pathetic person. It's cancerous politicking and learned helplessness like that that had ruined so many projects and websites.

>>57
What kidn of projects and websites?

>>58
node.js, courtesy of Joyent and their various shills.

>>58
The most visible is Wikipedia. And drive to improve any article at all has been replaced by someone squatting on a page and getting in a flame war with anyone who tries to change it. They will call an admin (who, through autistically lurking WP for 14 hours a day, they are good friends with) and have the admin blocked. People do this over the stupidest of shit. It could be an article on Ancient Greek pottery, the mating habits of a beetle that only lives in a 10km range in the middle of the Amazon, to fixing a typo in an article on basic subtraction. The people who infest argue policy like it's a court of law and they are on trial for murder. It is almost impossible to get almost anything done because so many losers have unhealthy emotional attachments to what they imagine as theirs, and take even the slightest alteration as a personal attack and cry about it. Get a fucking life.

>>60
You smugly refuse to mention the ethnicity of most of such admins. A very Biblical, specific ethnicity which explains a lot about contemporary Wikipedia.

>>56,58
vanila? Is that you?

>>60
link to her wiki account? this could generate some lols

>>63
How the shit would I know?

How the shit would I sage?

>>63
so when you said all that stuff about them being a shit on wikipedia you were just completely imagining it all

How is vanila not the good guy in the first wall o' text?

>>61
A ethnicity of 911 feats?