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shen isn't j ust a ..

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 15:57

shen isn't just a shitty hackernews bait lisp with unsound type system, it's also actively hostile towards freedom and making a big deal about it to encourage others to hate freedom

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/qilang/mVSJIyp-OhM/FjcAOAWUio0J

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 16:00

I wanted to give the issue of use of the GPL and the BSD to a separate thread because there is a lot of confusion about the issues here. The whole debate has been fogged by misinformation provided by the FSF concerning copyright. Quite of lot of programmers in the open source movement believe that because BSD is a liberal 'do as thou wilt' license; it is OK to 'relicense' BSD code under GPL. This is a myth. Feel free to copy this post to news groups.

The whole BSD/GPL issue came up in 2007 in the OpenBSD group where an OS programmer Reyk created a program under BSD that the GPL Linux folks wanted to place under GPL. You can read De Raadt's account here.

http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20070913014315

The story Theo gave, and I believe him, is that GPL Linux people pestered Reyk to allow them to license the code under GPL which he would not. According to Theo, they then simply took it and removed his name and put their names on top and GPLed it. This is of course illegal. When caught out, they resorted to a series of subterfuges including an argument that any BSD program could be 'relicensed' by having the GPL placed on it. According to de Raadt, Stallman disclaimed all knowledge of the episode. ("The FSF is not involved in this dispute."). However it seems Eben Moglen had knowledge of what was going on, and since Moglen is the right hand of Stallman, it is hard to credit Stallman not knowing the existence of the dispute. Here you will find him actively defending the Linux/GPL position with a view of copyright that is quite wrong.

http://openbsd.7691.n7.nabble.com/Real-men-don-t-attack-straw-men-tt55042.html#none

This is a very long thread (> 900 messages and I read them all) so type license into the search box if you want to read what Stallman says. His posts are masterpieces of prevarication and obfuscation.

De Raadt fought his corner and good for him; the GPL people backed down under threat of legal action. Theo says; and he is worth quoting because he is right.

But that is the clincher -- by law, a new person doing small changes to an original work is not allowed to assert copyright, and hence, gains none of the rights given by copyright law, and hence, cannot assert a license (copyright licenses surrender a subset of the
author's rights which the law gives them; the licenses do not not assert rights out of thin air).

Of course a decent organisation would have never tried such a disrespectful trick on an OS project. Unfortunately this relicensing idea has spread to the news groups.

Now it is open to me as copyright holder, to dual license the kernel to GPL, but I will not do so until there are some fundamental root and branch reforms of the FSF. Like what you ask? Well, here they are.

1. The whole 'closed source is evil' meme needs to be dropped. Programmers are entitled to do with their own work as they want, and it is obnoxious to call somebody a 'thief' as Stallman did to Bryan Lunduke (see 55m and after), merely for writing closed source games to feed his family. The arguments Stallman uses to support his position are lamentably weak. It is doubly obnoxious and hypocritical to do so because the FSF has been in receipt of donations from companies that make money from closed source.

2. Many of the programmers contributing to GPL are doing the work pro bono for little or nothing. Yet a vast income in the legal arm (SFLC) of the FSF is being trousered by lawyers. Moglen is making a huge sum in addition to his income as a law professor at Columbia. The lawyers need to work under the same conditions that programmers do.

3. Creative rights do need to be respected. Stallman's advocacy of piracy under 'the right to read' is just an endorsement of a criminal offence; particularly if the author is relying on book revenue to get by.

I would also add, not as a requirement, but as a wish, that the Orwellian use of the word 'free' to describe the GPL should be dropped.

This does not affect the ability to write GPL programs on top of Shen, but no part of my code will be relicensed to GPL until these reforms are instituted.

Mark

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 16:09

According to de Raadt, Stallman disclaimed all knowledge of the episode. ("The FSF is not involved in this dispute.")
False, this just means that the fsf had nothing to do with it. Not that the fsf did not know about it nor that members of the fsf has no part in it.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 18:21

The one thing I like about LITHPers is that they aren't Stallmarxist fanatics and like closed source.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 18:49

>>4
Both Gerald Gay Sussman and Heil Abelson are Stallmarxists actually.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 18:57

>>5
They're just schoolbook writers, not actual LITHPers. Franc Inc, Lispworks - hell, even Paul Graham made money off of LITHP. That's where the real LITHP is. And this Tarver guy, he made it a point right off the start to not be GNUmaniac. Although he is making his shit open source now, but that's only because nobody wanted it.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 18:59

* Franz Inc.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 19:23

>>6
Free does not mean that you can't sell it.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 19:36

>>8
But it means you will never make lots of money from it. Whereas with non-free, you at least have a chance.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 19:59

>>9
False. Free software means that if you want to make a lot of money that you need to change your business model to make it happen.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 20:13

>>10
There aren't any business models that allow making lots of money off free things, or else musicians, moviemakers and game-makers would use it instead of getting pissed over people pirating their stuff.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 20:14

unlimited pancakes

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 20:16

>>11
You think Google doesn't make money?

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 20:21

>>13
They don't open-source their software.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 20:29

>>11
There aren't any business models that allow making lots of money off free things
Yes that's true but it's a red herring. Selling free software isn't about selling free things.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-12 21:32

>>9
I though paul made free software?

>>14
But they do.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 3:43

>>16
ok buddy can i source code for google.com then? or gmail.com? ...

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 5:37

>>13
Google sells slavery.

>>17
Exploit, leak, profit, etc.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 6:13

>>17
Both google.com and gmail.com are free except their client-side javascript.
You can find the source code for chromium and many more projects google has made or contributed on.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 8:01

>>19
Why don't you fuck off back to google, then?

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 8:31

Both google.com and gmail.com are free

where is the source code

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 18:33

>>21
Google has it. For a software to be free you need everyone who has the binary to have the source code and the 4 freedoms on it. Just like Google is the only one who has the binary, they are the only ones who need and have the source code.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 19:52

>>22
Is that even relevant to the topic or is this just your way of saying ``I don't have a clue what freedom means''?

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 22:11

Google sold my eyeballs!

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 22:26

>>24
To your anus? That was heinous!

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-13 22:47

>>23
It seems very relevant to the topic.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-14 0:06

>>2
Which is why GPL is meaningless. All your work is to be absorbed by filthy dot coms.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-14 0:12

I hate these nutty bill gates/warren buffett tryhards. Look you little immoral imp, you are just going to end up shooting yourself in the head when you turn 50 and still are a nobody with a networth less than 100mil. Your money related "friends" won't remember you other than as an annoying competitor and your relatives will remember you as the greedy, stupid, money seeking faggot you are. you won't even spend that money on worthy shit anyways. fuck your shitty overpriced cars and disgusting prostitutes. jump off a cliff

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-14 2:39

Who cares if a group tries to re-license BSD code to GPL?
Yeah, you lose a shitload of freedom when you switch from BSD to GPL, but the original BSD licensed code is still available from the original servers.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-14 2:40

>>22
I license all my code under the BSD license so I'm an opensource developer and supporter of freedom of software.
I never distribute anything except binaries, however. Everybody who needs the source code has the source code.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-14 8:56

>>23
Freedom in software means that for the software that I run on my computers, I should have the authority to run it as I wish, to study and tinker with the software and also distribute verbatim and modified copies of the software. Gmail and Google search are web services that do no run on my computer. The javascript programs associated with Gmail and Google search do affect my freedom if I choose to use them.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-14 20:51

>>31
0/10

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-15 2:54

I put all my shit online so that a curry nigger in india, selected by fate, will find my work and continue it.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-15 11:31

>>33
Nobody will care about your work if you insult them as a curry nigger.

Name: Anonymous 2015-01-15 18:54

>>34
You'd hope so, but a lot of people will pay attention to racists and other bigots who think they're subhuman. They think it makes them ``pragmatists'' rather than hypocrites.
Just look at esr.

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