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[LISP] [Web] Let's work on the new Lispweb! [Standard]

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-17 1:10

We're all sick of dealing with the verbosity of XML/SGML based languages, the inconsistency of CSS and the overall badness of Javashit. Transcompiling to any of these languages is just a half-assed try at sugarcoating a turd.

Post your ideas for syntax/semantic rules, document structure, protocols, rendering techniques or anything relevant to the topic.

Hopefully we will be able to create a basic clone of /prog/ using the newly designed languages. No need to work on retarded features like animations or ``single page applications'' because this project is aimed exclusively at EXPERT PROGRAMMERS.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-24 15:15

>>76,77
That's Hebrew, not Arabic.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-24 17:32

>>81
same shit

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-24 19:07

>>82
Why would you put slimy sandniggers on the same level as world-conspiring kikes?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-24 19:42

``Sexps'' are just JavaScript for dumb niggers who don't have an IQ high enough to handle structure.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-24 19:47

>>84
At least put some effort on it.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-24 21:24

>>85
Look those words up on Simple English Wikipedia, Lisp dumbass.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-24 23:56

``Sexps'' are just JavaScript
You're the dumb one here, >>85-kun! You're comparing a notation for data with a bad programming language.

Name: >>87 2015-08-25 0:20

Turns out I'm dumb too, I meant >>86-kun.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-25 0:58

>>57
Your proposal is sound but the grammar relies too heavily on context. It spoils the ``Lispiness''.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-25 9:21

>>89
Well it would be too verbose otherwise, long lists of parameters are not easy to remember. It also adds to lowering the expectations of it rendering the same for everyone.

What functions would you replace and by what?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-26 19:25

>>90
R5RS has functions with ~3 arguments and it's not verbose.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-26 22:21

What does /prog/ think of putting logic and presentation in the same layer? We could do something about <span onclick="anus(); document.findObjectByTagId("AbstractTagFactory").some-css-shit-that-should-stay-css = "nigger"></span> by letting code be a first-class citizen in the new Lispweb. Of course, the logic should be designed to manipulate the AST on runtime and not to enable corner rounding appers to make ebin animations or jewssians and chinks to rape us with pop-ups and tracking.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-26 22:27

By the way, I'm talking about something like this.
http://hop.inria.fr/
It compiles to HTML and Javashit but web pages are written as programs and not as documents. It uses S-expressions but royally fucks up by using the same bloated tag set of HTML and literally makes them the car of the list (as in (<table> (<tr> (<td> niggers) (<td> niggers) (<td> niggers)))). Still an improvement though.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-26 23:14

>>92
If it isn't designed with security as one of the key priorities, it wont be any better than what we have now.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 1:27

>>94
What makes JavaScript insecure?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 1:41

Finally cracking open JavaScript: The Good Parts.
https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/636688445398618112

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 6:00

>>95
Using memory errors to obtain remote code execution. cross site scripting. let's see, what else. Oh, china uses it to get people to launch a ddos with their browser, which is neat. Infinite pop ups. Someone on old /prog/ wrote a script that appended to the page in an infinite loop and it crashed every browser. At least try to address xss. Protecting against that in a way that doesn't depend on webdevs being smart is a step in the right direction.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 9:29

check out this web page: https://grsecurity.net/announce.php

it has a banner, menu, document, then some footer stuff.

instead of people designing their own webpages, why not just provide 5 or so pre-made layouts - like the grsec one. and another with a side bar etc.

then instead of doing <html><head>...<body> ... you could just pick the laytou and put your content there.

This seems to be a lot easier for implementors and people making sites. of course it's much more limited, but in a way that is a strength.

Thoughts?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 10:05

>>98
Not a good idea, Imagine having an UI toolkit that only lets you use 5 pre-made layouts.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 10:42

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/08/cops-decide-to-collect-less-license-plate-data-after-80gb-drive-got-full/

According to Sgt. Dave Burke, who is in charge of the city’s LPR system, this change was not in response to Ars’ article, but rather was made primarily because the LPR computer—a Windows XP computer with an 80GB hard drive—was full and apparently "kept crashing."

Well that's comforting.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 10:57

http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/26/9211513/a-look-inside-googles-new-onhub-wireless-router

Since Google is hyperaware that people tend to believe the company knows everything they do on the internet, it says right inside the app's privacy settings that the router is not tracking the websites you visit.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 11:06

>>98
>>99
I guess it depends on what exactly you want lispweb to be. If you want lispweb to be a suitable replacement for the web, it will have to more powerful than it, in the sense that it lets you do more things, and better. But the way people actually use the web is that it's just a shitty, (supposedly) sandboxed version of normal desktop programs, where the only programming language is javascript and you can't do anything too interesting, like access arbitrary hardware. Many web sights could probably fit into the format you described, but most of the places people go on the web (facebook, email, youtube, amazon) won't - they require more complex formatting and client-side logic to fulfill their intended purpose.

What, then, are people who want to make a web sight like that to do if they wanted to use your system? Would you use a programming language that didn't let you use your own algorithms, and instead made you choose between a few pre-implemented ones? I see the value in such a system, because a lot of web sights are one of a small number of layouts, so making a system where it was easy to make things like that could be good (in addition to giving you some guarantees for reasoning about such pages, such as knowing that they are all of a few different layouts - like you said, much easier to make a language/interpreter/spec for).

But, from the observation that many places on the web follow that same format, it follows that the web is already a superset of that functionality - if you were to implement that idea, what advantage would it have over the web (HTML/javascript/etc) itself? It certainly has an advantage for implementors, but what about people who would actually make pages in your system - what do they gain by using a system with a subset of the functionality of an existing alternative? Sometimes only allowing a subset of possible inputs can give you something better in return - that's the whole point of static type systems, after all, and what you get is a strong guarantee about some of the properties of the programs that are allowed. In this case, though, what kind of guarantees do the users of such a system get in return (especially for the price of not being able to implement an infinitely large set of ideas that involve alternate layouts)?

If what you want is a nice way to make certain kinds of web sights, then that's a great idea, but I don't think it can compete with the web itself - a competitor to the web will need to be a superset, to appeal to the people who might use it, and it will need to be easier to reason about, to appeal to implementors.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 11:10

>>99
gopher is just plaintext documents with links. still, it's very powerful and makes it easy to find what you want. So I'm not convinced that this is a bad idea from what you said.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 11:12

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/thousands-popcorn-time-users-targeted-anti-piracy-group-133018057.html

Underscoring how much easier the service is to use than traditional BitTorrent clients, the ascension of Popcorn Time has resulted in an absolute explosion in piracy since its 2014 launch. Norway in particular has experienced a huge increase in piracy, with some estimates claiming that 15% of the population there has viewed pirated content within the last 12 months.

so usability was the barrier after all.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 12:29

>>102
The goal was never to build web 4.0. What we require is something that can replace the terrible mudball that people have been adding to and adding to. Replace it with something that is simultaneously expressive enough to build "sites" for the things we want to do, and to be simple enough to implement by an individual.

What you said about "static type systems" is right: We need to restrict things a lot so that they can be implemented securely. Both implementors and users benefit from this. A simple-to-implement yet general way to design pages and layouts seems too difficult to come up with so far - so I proposed this alternative.

Thanks for your input! It's really useful!

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 13:08

>>102
Web sights, web sights, web sights.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 13:55

Why are arachnophobes bad at navigating the internet?

They freak out at every web sight.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 16:00

>>107
dude rofl la mao epic

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-27 22:57

>>108
How is his harmless joke worse than the memes /g/ uses?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-28 1:32

>>109
What do you mean by ``harmless''?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-28 4:54

>>112
What do you mean by ``nice trips''?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-28 13:33

On a related note, can anyone explain what the Semantic Web is about? There's so much bullshit on the Internet about "web of data", "web 3.0" and "intelligent data" that it's hard for me to make any sense of it. So far it looks like they're using XML tag names to "give meaning" to things, which has been done for years.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-28 15:11

>>112
some sperg retard nerds thought that tagging your HTML elements with "semantic" info would be the next big thing to help companies data mine the fuck out of everything.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-28 17:40

sperg retard nerds
Did you mean ENTERPRISE retards and appers?

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-28 17:53

I think he meant ALPHABET stock owners

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-28 23:34

>>112-113
Furthermore another languages were made to specify the meaning of things, what same things are in different domains, restrictions between domains and so.

Imagine you know of three websites that sell books, even thgough they may specify slightly different things (some of them for instance sell magazines as well) the idea is you would be able to infer if concepts from different domains are compatible. This is related to formal language theory. You could also treat the three websites as web services and have automatic discovery and satisfaction of service requirements, this would be the semantic web applied to service cooperation and orchestration.

That is, if any of this wasn't academic hogwash.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-29 17:58

Clojure is not a LISP.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-29 20:24

Is nikita around these days? Sadkov? I quite miss him, I was the haskell guy on the other prog.

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-30 6:02

>>118
wrong thread and what do you mean? the dog owner? or do you think you were the only person on oldprog that knew haskell? anyway, yes - he has been around.

Let's get back on topic

Name: Anonymous 2015-08-30 16:12

>>89-90
You don't need to have functions with lots of arguments if you make everything an expression.

(Title Welcome to my websight)

would ``return'' a title object that's ready to be rendered by the browser and

(language French (
(title Welcome to my websight)
)


would bind said object to a French language context, which is also an object that can be rendered by the browser. language is a function that takes two parameters: the name and the objects you want bound to the language.

After all, markup languages are in some way programming languages that run on the layout engine and languages which represent code with S-expressions are homoiconic.

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