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The Real Story of the World Wide Web

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 0:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWDPhEvKuRY

Come on... Ted Nelson deserves much more views! maybe Project Xanadu is vaporware, but he is a really smart old man..
On the other side you have timbl who is selling the web to Hollywood lobbies. We should start all this cyberspace and hypertext shit again.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 2:28

>>1
N-n-nice find Ano. I highly believed at the time there was more than one hypertext system But Ted Nelson just confirmed it. I only knew of the HyperCard system.

But that shows that National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA) was at fault for publishing it, and Netscape for marketing it.

I am bookmarking his second video of the Computers for Cynics series to watch later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6SUOeAqOjU

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 2:30

>>1-2
Strange, most articles were never comment on:
https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Ted+Nelson
https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Computer+for+Cynics&start=0

I wonder if reddit has as well?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 2:34

>>3
dont even think to post it on reddit
maybe in harmful @ cat-v...

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 2:37

>>4
Why? I think it would be the proper thing to do, even though I have not created an account yet. The word would get out, and they would demand SexpML. (or ogr-mode for now)

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 2:44

>>1
I think this is the main detriment low volume of viewer-ship:
Comments are disabled for this video.

If it was enabled, people would be more willing to engage. The sad part is, he never citied any works or references. Some one actually needs to do so, to cast away any doubt from viewers.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 3:03

I think these guy is on the right path making Xanadu Space:
https://bbs.progrider.org/prog/read/1381565769/8-

A database for data and relations, and some representation server for the limited. Clients connect by their means. A true MVC.

Name: Still waiting on the MEMEX 2013-10-15 3:09

For those amiss on what the Xanadu space is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En_2T7KH6RA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu

Name: >>8 2013-10-15 3:11

Left out the most important link:
http://xanadu.com/

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 3:50

>>7,8,9
Looks nice, to be sure, but I'd prefer to see an in-depth structural definition so that multiple viewers can be created, a few sample documents, etc, as opposed to a broken link to /xuPurple. Of course, that whole `broken link' thing is what he's trying to solve, so I guess it only makes his point stronger. His point about obsessive skeuomorphism is spot-on with my view of the world.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 4:12

>>10
That's fine. I do not think Ted wanted people to conform to his parallel view format. What he wanted was true hyperlinks, hopefully atomic and self-healing linkable. a relational database offers just that. The MVC would be in charge of the actual representation of that data. And obviously the user would have the choice on how it would display.

Also, optimize your >>10-10,10-10.

I just got done with the first 3 videos of the series. I have to say, I am enthralled. Thanks >>1. Still, like >>7 said, it would have been amazing if everything was referenced, like his Xanadu project. It does indeed feel like a poem or speech, more that a historical account. Well, it his theatrical piece:
https://youtu.be/KdnGPQaICjk

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 5:25

>>2
Did you say HyperCard? that's a great piece of hypermedia software, using the fantastic HyperTalk language, truly awesomeness MAN.
You know, Myst was created using HyperCard. I really don't know why people stopped using it.

Name: ██████████ 2013-10-15 5:42

>>12
Oh Jesus, I did not know about that.
That is sweet. I played that game to shit when I was little.
Best game my parents got me.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 7:27

>>11
I have no idea of how to comprehend your message. What is a true hyperlink and how can it be atomic and self-healing?

Name: 🅱🅻🅾🅲🅺🆂 2013-10-15 15:47

>>12
Vulnerabilities killed it. It was used to spread malware. Now we have GTK+, and other toolkits.

>>14
RESTful hyperlinks. An atomic hyperlink is unique, and self-identifying from the reference file and source file. Self-healing hyperlinks are resistant to failures and can mitigate relinking: e.g. relinking in case a server containing the file fails or file gets moved, etc. Ted calls it transclusion, but I bring the ACID properties to it.

You should read his wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 19:50

>>15
huh? HyperCard is totally different, you didn't need to be a brogrammer to create shit with it

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 20:47

>>16
Exactly the point. People abused the fact you can embed code with it by linking objects to material that triggered the malware, and people shared it like crazy. Someone on jewtube documented the reason why HyperCard imploded on design choice and its poor security consideration, can't recall the link.

This wiki page makes a poor job of listing all of them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermedia

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 20:53

>>16
Fuck me, its right in its wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard#Exploits

Name: >>17 2013-10-15 21:02

BTW, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermedia link, I meant all Hypermedia systems, not vulnerabilities. Like Ted describes on OP's video link.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 21:07

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson
“Most people are fools, most authority is malignant, God does not exist, and everything is wrong" [note 1]

He isn't that bright that's for sure. Stupid crusty old cunt.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 21:38

>>20
It's all in the context:
Nelson's hatred of conventional structure made him difficult to educate. Bored and disgusted by school, he once plotted to stab his seventh-grade teacher with a sharpened screwdriver, but lost his nerve at the last minute and instead walked out of the classroom, never to return. On his long walk home, he came up with the four maxims that have guided his life: most people are fools, most authority is malignant, God does not exist, and everything is wrong. Nelson loves these maxims and repeats them often. They lead him to sympathize, in every discussion, with the rejected idea and the discounted option.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.06/xanadu.html?pg=3
Ch.2¶3

But don't you agree? You do not share the same resentment facebooker, twitters, and instagrammers?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 21:44

>>20,21
That's just Gary Wolf making him look like a demon:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.06/xanadu.html?pg=1

Name: >>22 2013-10-15 21:47

It's 1995 news:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curse_of_Xanadu#The_Curse_of_Xanadu

Name: >>22 2013-10-15 21:48

Fucking crony:
http://aether.com/

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 21:57

>>20,21
Blame this fucking guy for miss quoting:
(cur | prev) 14:41, 9 January 2011‎ HeikoHaller (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (13,524 bytes) (+524)‎ . . (Copied two already existing quotes down to the new Quotes section) (undo) (Tag: possibly non-minor edit)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:HeikoHaller

Editing that shit.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-15 22:48

Fucking hell, one after the other:
The IP address that you are currently using has been blocked because it is believed to be an open proxy.

Name: >>26 2013-10-16 5:52

Fixed.

>>20-22
And also, here is his recording repudiating that article that was wrongly quoted:
https://youtu.be/w950GgRzbJk?t=4m30s

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-16 6:01

>>27
Holy shit. His ideas are amazing. Why hasn't anyone made it yet?:
https://youtu.be/w950GgRzbJk?t=8m00s

It's all what >>11,15 said.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-16 6:07

Here is more about the Stand-off markup he referenced:
http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Stand-off_markup

Name: BOOBIES! 2013-10-16 6:12

youtu.be/AXlyMrv8_dQ?t=2m11s

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-16 15:34

>>20
Yup, TN is one step of die 9front circlejerk. But at least he created something actually useful!

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-16 18:03

>>31
Did you even read >>22-27? That wasn't even Ted talking, but Gary Wolf, the slime ball of a lifetime.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 0:30

Not bothering to watch his videos. What is his proposal and why does >>28-san think it's so good?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 0:48

>>33
His "proposal" is this sort of clunky program that allows you to rotate pages in 3D and which highlights shared passages of text. It was arguably a good idea when he came up with it 30 years ago, but for whatever reason he's become very defensive about it. If you watch some of his videos, you'll see that he's quite bitter that people haven't seen the light, and that he refuses to change his program based on suggestions. Notice also that he's apparently gone so far as to disable comments on all his videos. I think that's why he doesn't get any attention.

Name: ‪ 2013-10-17 0:48

>>33
It's all what >>11,15 said.
Can't people read these days, at all?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 0:50

>>30
That's some great acting there. It's so awkward I almost believe they're real nerds!

Name: ‪ 2013-10-17 0:58

>>34
I guess you also don't know how to read:
Original 17 rules
  Every Xanadu server is uniquely and securely identified.
  Every Xanadu server can be operated independently or in a network.
  Every user is uniquely and securely identified.
  Every user can search, retrieve, create and store documents.
  Every document can consist of any number of parts each of which may be of any data type.
  Every document can contain links of any type including virtual copies ("transclusions") to any other document in the system accessible to its owner.
  Links are visible and can be followed from all endpoints.
  Permission to link to a document is explicitly granted by the act of publication.
  Every document can contain a royalty mechanism at any desired degree of granularity to ensure payment on any portion accessed, including virtual copies ("transclusions") of all or part of the document.
  Every document is uniquely and securely identified.
  Every document can have secure access controls.
  Every document can be rapidly searched, stored and retrieved without user knowledge of where it is physically stored.
  Every document is automatically moved to physical storage appropriate to its frequency of access from any given location.
  Every document is automatically stored redundantly to maintain availability even in case of a disaster.
  Every Xanadu service provider can charge their users at any rate they choose for the storage, retrieval and publishing of documents.
  Every transaction is secure and auditable only by the parties to that transaction.
  The Xanadu client-server communication protocol is an openly published standard. Third-party software development and integration is encouraged.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu#Original_17_rules

Standard Draft or Manifesto: http://xanadu.com.au/general/faq.html#2

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 1:28

>>37
Fossil nearly provides all those features. However, I agree with some of the points discussed here:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?XanaduProject
It was claimed that "Xanadu is completely obsolete as a system since it doesn't take into account such fundamental things as decentralization and authentication. Xanadu shows its decrepitude by being incompatible with PeerToPeer and never mentioning cryptography."

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 2:38

Why do I know how to find them?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARQL

Name: >>39 2013-10-17 2:40

Oh, here is Xanadu, in W3C:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Description_Framework

Just ignore the XML clusterfuck from W3C

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 2:53

>>34
1960 was 53 years ago.
>>38
probably the most stupid and tasteless quote in this BBS.

Of course that Xanadu may seems antiquated... C, or EVEN Scheme may seems.. obsolete for young /g/rogramers like you as well.. but if you try to be a bit more clever you will realize that it have many great an solid ideas.
Your insolent use of buzzwords (such us p2p and crypto) are not going to make his idea more powerful, because you are thinking in the infrastructure (like a nigger) while Ted is thinking/working on the fundamentals concepts of hypermedia.

I would recommend you to stop wasting your time making unimportant comments about important people. There are other places for people like you (i.e. HN).

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 14:03

>>41
I am not debating that if it is old, it should not be taken a look at, and that its ideas are awful. I am saying that the standard does not consider the fact that the computer world is distributed in nature, not everyone has the same internet connection or global semantics, and not everyone needs their documents eavesdropped even while reading.

I am just exemplifying that a Fossil repo is the nearest piece of software that fits those ideals, but it is distributed in nature, you can build secure connection connections, and encrypt the information itself too.

And redirecting people to other places where this information needs to be spread is fine. Why hasn't anyone made a HN or r/programming/ thread about it, eh⸮

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 19:18

>>34
How the hell is browsing (something that should be formatted as plain text) in 3D a good idea?

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 19:25

>>37
  Every user is uniquely and securely identified.
No way I'm using that in post-NSA times.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 19:32

>>41
p2p and crypto are not buzzwords you piece of shit

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 20:36

>>44
post-nsa
What? You mean NSA times not post-nsa.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 20:37

>>45
Learn to spell cryptography you skiddie.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 20:45

>>45
Learn to spell cryptography you skiddie.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-17 23:18

>>47>>48
skid my anus

Name: concise [64c. 👌 4 SMS] 2013-10-17 23:43

>>47-48
Learn2abbr. bro. it's 2013, & aint goig to b,com bloated.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-18 1:17

>>50
retard

Name: ºoº 2013-10-18 5:29

>>51
I am slow at replying back, playing all scenarios in my head for a reply (and doing other shit in the comp). Ad hominem was option # 3. Toodles!

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-18 6:34

toodle my anus

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-19 5:11

>>52
That's not how ad hominem works.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-19 16:17

>>54
My apologies. I had thought calling someone derogatory names without a rebuttal was a attack on the person, to the responding man. My bad. I should have not taking this personally.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-21 16:38

Honestly loving the thread so far guys: Arguments about the ideas of old grumpy sysops who did a lot of drugs and never got laid are way more interesting than they have any right to be -- especially when you throw some cranky aspies autists into the mix! (cf. >>45-55) That said, I feel that >>43 has made an excellent point and I am eagerly awaiting more discussion on this topic!

And I think you guys will appreciate this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1581891.stm

He was hating the WWW way back when people made Pets.com jokes unironically!

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-21 19:21

>>55
It is, but not in the way of ad hominem. What you are seeing here is name calling. Ad hominems try to discredit the source of the argument.

Name: >>42 2013-10-21 20:56

>>53
Consider it tootled!

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-21 20:58

>>57
discredit my anus

Name: >>43 2013-10-21 21:44

>>56
I didn't think my argument would make so much sense to someone else, but if I can't browse your ``new web'' from a TTY, you guys can go and jump in a lake of putrid Javashit.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-24 0:33

>>60
My next web zone is best viewed with Oculus rift, and you need three synchronized participants to get the full experience of the dropdown menus.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-24 10:35

>>61
not developing your site in XML3D

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-24 11:32

>>62
Please refrain from quoting something that hasn't been said.

Name: Anonymous 2013-10-28 11:54

>>63
lelele
Don't change these.
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