08:08:11 --- join: ddellacosta (~ddellacos@softbank126126136112.bbtec.net) joined #haskell 08:09:12 <rwbarton> haasn: for instance, just comparing "main = mapM_ print [1..10000000]" to a C program using printf, it is already only ~5 times slower 08:10:00 <albeit> Why "already only"? Is that faster than you would expect? 08:10:02 <vanila> Why is haskell so slow? 08:10:18 <rwbarton> I am just responding to <haasn> I guess for String, “only an order of magnitude†would count as “surprisingly efficient†08:10:22 --- join: tvorog (~marsel@94.180.188.7) joined #haskell 08:10:34 <mmachenry1> vanila: Maybe Haskell just woke up. 08:10:44 --- nick: mmachenry1 -> mmachenry 08:10:58 <Maior> vanila: do you just sit in channels to troll them? the Django stuff yesterday about the master/slave stuff was unsubtle 08:11:06 --- join: folone (~folone@62.72.64.50) joined #haskell 08:11:14 --- quit: plosi (Remote host closed the connection) 08:11:16 <Maior> (for a flexible value of yesterday that means "some days in the recent past") 08:11:22 --- quit: sopvop (Quit: Leaving.) 08:11:41 <mmachenry> Maior: I guess I *was* born yesterday ;) 08:11:45 <napping> Is there an easy way to expand unicode ligature characters (I really just need "ff" and "ffi", guess I could hardcode them) 08:11:49 --- join: tommd (~tommd@2001:4870:e08e:201:728b:eaff:fefb:fc9b) joined #haskell 08:12:09 <Maior> mmachenry: :P 08:12:11 --- join: assia_t (~assia_t@179.208.192.231) joined #haskell 08:12:23 --- quit: Aetherspawn (Quit: Aetherspawn) 08:12:35 <napping> Data.Text.ICU.Normalize probably does it somehow 08:12:41 --- quit: ddellacosta (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 08:12:57 --- join: u_ (~phillip@75.57.165.245) joined #haskell 08:12:58 --- quit: ifesdjee_ (Remote host closed the connection) 08:13:30 --- quit: davorb (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 08:13:36 --- quit: free_beard (Quit: Leaving.) 08:13:59 --- join: piezo (~piezoid@ADijon-652-1-160-164.w90-56.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #haskell 08:14:10 --- join: free_beard (~mircea@unaffiliated/free-beard/x-6152516) joined #haskell 08:14:20 <absence> has it been decided when the applicative monad proposal will hit ghc head? anytime soon, or closer to 7.10 release? 08:14:29 --- join: circ-user-s4yHg (~circuser-@eth-seco11pa2-46-193-1-142.wb.wifirst.net) joined #haskell 08:14:32 --- join: agamble (~agamble@nat-245-140.internal.eduroam.ucl.ac.uk) joined #haskell 08:14:35 --- join: davorb (~davorb@hd5b91cc8.k9211.dyn.perspektivbredband.net) joined #haskell 08:15:35 --- join: phunker (~devil@93-50-163-37.ip153.fastwebnet.it) joined #haskell 08:15:40 <Maior> absence: ooh got a link handy? 08:15:51 <vanila> Maior: Since you're ignoring my PM I'll say it here: that was very rude and unfair of you 08:16:26 --- quit: thunderrd (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:16:31 <Maior> vanila: I have PMs from non-friends disabled 08:16:31 <ion> {-# LANGUAGE ffi #-} 08:16:33 --- quit: ktosiek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:17:03 <Maior> vanila: meanwhile, I stand by it as a valid question from the data I have 08:17:11 --- nick: benzrf|offline -> benzrf 08:17:29 <vanila> Maior, move discussion to PM 08:17:40 <Maior> I'll pass 08:17:51 --- quit: mgsloan (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:18:37 --- quit: Zeitgeist_ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 08:19:16 --- quit: circ-user-s4yHg (Remote host closed the connection) 08:19:20 <mmachenry> Maior: It's not really a valid question yet. I don't have your data and your question is underspecified. Unless I missed something which is possible, I lost network a moment ago. 08:19:27 <absence> Maior: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Functor-Applicative-Monad_Proposal 08:19:44 <ion> vanila: Pastebin your code and we can try to figure out why it’s too slow. Otherwise the question can only be answered with mu. 08:19:56 --- join: gregors (~gregors@99-9-225-70.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) joined #haskell 08:19:59 <rwbarton> absence: there is no scheduling of when things hit GHC HEAD in my experience. either someone gets around to it, or not 08:20:10 <Maior> absence: cheers 08:20:28 --- join: pilu (~pilu@r186-54-241-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) joined #haskell
Name:
Anonymous2014-05-30 20:32
* Now talking on #haskell-ops * Topic for #haskell-ops is: [#haskell moderators : http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/IRC_channel/Management - Users are welcome to join for specific discussion but asked not to idle ] * Topic for #haskell-ops set by glguy (Tue Dec 18 17:12:59 2012) <vanila> im getting harassed by some guy from another channel <vanila> Maior <Saizan> vanila: seems like the problem got resolved by itself <vanila> how? <vanila> I put him on ignore for attacking me, did he leave or what <vanila> ] <Saizan> there's no attacking going on <vanila> I can see that you're not going to help me <Saizan> i believe you don't need any help from an op <Saizan> vanila: any other request? otherwise users are asked to not idle on this channel * glguy (~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy) has joined * ChanServ gives voice to glguy <vanila> glguy, got a sec? was getting harassed by some guy from another channel <glguy> in #haskell? <vanila> yes <glguy> What was the issue? <vanila> being hostile, attacking me over some political disagreement several days ago in another channel <vanila> talking about me and insulting me in public and refusing to resolve it in PM <Saizan> glguy: vanila got called a troll after asking "why is haskell so slow?" and apparatently being unpleasant in other channels according to Maior <vanila> http://pastebin.com/mMGxJQEz <glguy> OK, but that was a single message from Maior, presumably there is some other series of messages in channel I missed? <vanila> would rather Saizan not be involved in this <byorgey> vanila: sorry, you don't get to choose which ops are involved. <glguy> Well, Saizan's one of our finest moderators. We don't have a hierarchy for you to appeal through. <glguy> The stuff I saw in the logs looked pretty mild, actually. <vanila> I'm unhappy about the hostile treatement <Saizan> vanila: being called a troll is not the nicest thing, we can agree. That exchange doesn't make Maior someone persecuting you though <Saizan> vanila: also, coming to #haskell to ask "why is haskell so slow?" out of the blue would make most people think your intentions are not the most genuine <vanila> would rather Saizan not be involved in this <Saizan> vanila: so, as to save anyone's time, I will ask you again to leave, or I will have to ban you from this channel <vanila> <vanila> I can see that you're not going to help me <Saizan> vanila: last change to give any evidence you're being attacked, to me. <Saizan> *chance <vanila> glguy, byorgey help? <glguy> You have to recognize that when you join #* and ask "Why is * slow" without any additional qualification, you'll probably be called a troll <vanila> glguy, I didn't join and ask <shapr> I would certainly back up Saizan's decision, whatever it may be. <glguy> and a single response in channel is not a pattern of harrassment <glguy> and now the exchange is over, so it's not even an ongoing issue <vanila> shapr, When someone was saying how nice and friendly the channel was you mentioned something about the social norms being periodically enforced <shapr> Yes, and this is a representative instance of that. <vanila> shapr, I thought I get help from you guys over hostile treatment <shapr> vanila: The rules for #haskell are "Be Nice, or Else" <vanila> shapr, can you tell that to him then? <shapr> From what I've seen, Saizan is dealing with your 'case', and I trust Saizan's judgement. <shapr> If Saizan believes that you have done something ban-worthy, then I believe that is true. <vanila> no he isn't, I've been trying to get a second opinion but he keeps pushing in <shapr> vanila: I would suggest that you understand what Saizan felt was bad for the #haskell community and attempt to correct that. <shapr> If you've already passed that point, have a nice life :-) * dolio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) <vanila> I don't understand what you just said but "have a nice life" is usually used as a sarcastic insult - kind of feel like you're making fun of me <shapr> If you haven't passed that point, try communicating with Saizan, understanding his point, correcting the issue, and you might get to hang around more. <shapr> vanila: No, I am pathologically sincere. <vanila> oh are you threatening to ban me from the channel or something * edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) <Saizan> vanila: so, I can ask Maior about not calling people trolls, and you should try formulating questions less provocatively <vanila> Saizan, I would happy to comply with that <vanila> be happy to* <shapr> vanila: if it's good for the community, I would certainly ban you from the channel. But Saizan is dealing with whatever is going on, and I trust his judgement. <Saizan> vanila: ok, see you on #haskell then <vanila> shapr, Pretty upset about all this, I feel you really dislike me <shapr> vanila: You are imagining that. <vanila> I'm getting it from the way you talk to me <shapr> That's certainly your choice. <byorgey> vanila: tone is very hard to convey over IRC. I have met shapr in person and I can guarantee that he does not dislike you. <vanila> It's like you're making fun of me, trying to provoke me <shapr> vanila: Nope, I'm a nice guy who wants the #haskell channel to be a productive friendly community. <shapr> vanila: questions like "Why is Haskell so slow?" are directly provocative. <shapr> That question starts with the basic assumption that Haskell is slow. <vanila> <rwbarton> haasn: for instance, just comparing "main = mapM_ print [1..10000000]" to a C program using printf, it is already only ~5 times slower <vanila> <albeit> Why "already only"? Is that faster than you would expect? <vanila> <vanila> Why is haskell so slow? <shapr> Yes, that does not change what I said. <vanila> I didn't want to be taken out of context <vanila> I've seen research of compilers for strongly typed languages that are much faster than C - because of the typing <shapr> So, you could say: Why is that bit of Haskell code 5 times slower than C? <shapr> How you say things affects the way people understand what you say. <vanila> I accept your criticism but please understand that the guy originally policing my language was doing it because of political disagreement in past discussions elsewhere <shapr> You are still obligated to be nice on #haskell if you wish to participate. * edwardk (~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk) has joined * ChanServ gives voice to edwardk * edwardk has quit (Client Quit) <vanila> Are you saying I wasn't being nice? <vanila> I don't agree with that
09:09:10 <l4u_c> It took 10s. Is there something wrong? 09:09:15 --- join: tharper (~tomh@c83-250-213-196.bredband.comhem.se) joined #haskell 09:09:15 --- quit: tharper (Changing host) 09:09:15 --- join: tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) joined #haskell 09:09:16 <bartavelle> because this package is unmaintained, and the mask is opposite of what is conventional 09:09:21 --- quit: ustunozg_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 09:09:29 --- quit: Lethalman (Quit: Sto andando via) 09:09:53 --- quit: pi3r (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 09:10:31 <l4u_c> It might be related to the outdated attoparsec package referenced in yesod platform? 09:10:53 --- quit: free_beard (Quit: Leaving.) 09:11:05 --- join: edwardk (~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk) joined #haskell 09:11:08 <bartavelle> ah ther's network-ip 09:11:10 --- quit: edwardk (Client Quit) 09:11:27 --- join: hkon_ (~hkon_@213.167.121.42.static.lyse.net) joined #haskell 09:11:37 <toonces> alright I need a little bit of help here. Trying to list the first n primes. 'divides' check whether x devides (mod) any number in xs http://lpaste.net/8842879243424628736 . Where is the error? 09:11:37 --- join: pi3r (~pi3r@109.140.202.112) joined #haskell 09:11:54 --- quit: phischu (Quit: Leaving.) 09:12:49 --- join: alxgnon (~alxgnon@gateway/tor-sasl/alxgnon) joined #haskell 09:13:22 <shapr> vanila: Seriously, be nice, or else 09:13:32 <vanila> http://pastebin.com/qx9d44rj 09:13:44 --- quit: mizu_no_oto (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 09:13:59 --- quit: c-rog (Remote host closed the connection) 09:14:01 --- join: hoverbear (~hoverbear@unaffiliated/hoverbear) joined #haskell 09:14:02 --- join: schlegel (~quassel@184.75.221.234) joined #haskell 09:14:14 --- nick: schlegel -> Lutin` 09:15:00 --- quit: hamid (Quit: Lost terminal) 09:15:11 --- quit: lw (Quit: s) 09:15:59 --- quit: troydm (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 09:16:28 --- quit: hkon_ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 09:16:37 --- join: dolio (~dolio@c-71-233-149-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #haskell 09:16:41 --- join: hebz0rl (~hebz0rl@dslb-084-060-164-102.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #haskell 09:16:44 --- quit: Tjr (Quit: TITANIC (Excess Flood)) 09:16:46 <vanila> byorgey, PM? 09:17:13 --- join: kadoban (~kadoban@ip70-171-230-183.tc.ph.cox.net) joined #haskell 09:17:48 --- quit: pi3r (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 09:18:14 --- quit: tharper (Remote host closed the connection) 09:18:16 <ion> vanila: Private messaging random people is considered rude. 09:18:41 --- join: tharper (~tomh@c83-250-213-196.bredband.comhem.se) joined #haskell 09:18:42 --- quit: tharper (Changing host) 09:18:42 --- join: tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) joined #haskell 09:18:46 --- quit: thevishy (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 09:18:56 --- join: QuaintRcky (~QuaintRck@68-189-101-218.dhcp.wtvl.ca.charter.com) joined #haskell 09:19:26 <vanila> is everyone just trying to make me feel as unwelcome and hated as possible today? :( 09:19:32 --- join: hoverbea_ (~hoverbear@unaffiliated/hoverbear) joined #haskell 09:19:33 <hyPiRion> ion: Wouldn't that entirely depend on what you mean by "random" and what your intent is? 09:19:51 --- join: n-dolio (~dolio@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com) joined #haskell 09:20:08 <shapr> vanila: I'd suggest a bunch of sleep, a bunch of exercise, and some really good food. 09:20:16 --- quit: mmachenry (Quit: Leaving.)
Well, why is Haskell so slow? Because the code was not compiled. The C equivalent was written for a console program while this was executed on ghci most presumably.
Also, Maior called him out on past trolling. Godamn retarded slave master bullshit.
Name:
Anonymous2014-05-30 21:37
>>7 I think she just said to them that the master slave was stupid also you are mean and you say stuff without knowing just because of hate
# <vanila> has anyone brought this up # <vanila> https://github.com/django/django/pull/2692 # <apollo13> vanila: no :) # <vanila> i cant access the googlegroups discussion # ...
09:15:42 --- join: Baughn (~svein@tsugumi.brage.info) joined #haskell 09:15:52 --- quit: MercurialAlchemi (Quit: Lost terminal) 09:15:58 <Algebr> Seems like a massive waste of duplicated effort. 09:16:08 <chirpsalot> Algebr: oh, it totally is! 09:16:26 <Yuu_chan> Real mean write their own data structures for each project. 09:16:27 --- join: MercurialAlchemi (~mercurial@178.21.88.201) joined #haskell 09:16:27 --- join: lunaryorn (~lunaryorn@127.206.eduroam.dynamic.rbg.tum.de) joined #haskell 09:16:29 <chirpsalot> Whenever I need a linked list in C... I just write my own. 09:16:31 <Yuu_chan> *Real men 09:16:35 --- quit: drbean (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 09:16:42 <Maior> Yuu_chan: please don't do that 09:16:51 <chirpsalot> It's kind of just what the culture is with C, I guess? 09:17:17 <Yuu_chan> Maior: do what? 09:17:23 <Maior> Yuu_chan: "real men" 09:17:39 <pjdelport> Yuu_chan: real mean men? :) 09:17:46 <Yuu_chan> Are those kind of jokes banned?.. 09:17:54 <dfranke> eacameron: for example, if A and B are semigroups (and I'll use + for the semigroup operation because I can't remember what ekmett uses in the semigroup package), then f and g are an isomorphism of semigroups if forall x,y : A, f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y), and forall x,y : B, f'(x + y) = f'(x) + f'(y). 09:18:05 <Maior> Yuu_chan: pass; I wasn't aware of any form of "ban list" 09:18:06 <yitz> dfranke: <> 09:18:07 <edwardk> <> 09:19:31 <yitz> dfranke: and f is an isomorphism of sets 09:19:49 <nclarke> Yuu_chan: I doubt they're banned, but those kind of comments help perpetuate the idea of programming as a "man's game", and thus tend to (probably unintentionally) exclude others from the community 09:19:52 --- join: Kiryx (~Kiryx@sub234-190.elpos.net) joined #haskell 09:20:01 <Maior> nclarke: thanks, was trying to word that 09:20:11 --- join: favetelinguis (~favetelin@shark.ros.sgsnet.se) joined #haskell 09:20:42 --- join: taktoa (~quassel@ool-457a51c6.dyn.optonline.net) joined #haskell 09:20:44 <Yuu_chan> My bad. 09:20:59 --- quit: cdsmith_ (Remote host closed the connection) 09:21:12 <lwm> nclarke: Yuu_chan: while off topic, this is really interesting as to whether that age old classic programming joke is now sexist 09:21:14 <yitz> Maior, nclarke: we definitely are trying very hard in our community to be sensitive to those kinds of issues 09:21:15 <dfranke> in this case, we already have the appropriate established connotation from the term "Real Programmers", which happens to be gender-neutral :-) 09:21:16 <vanila> how you make a linked list in haskell: data L a = N | C a (L a) 09:21:33 --- quit: Kiryx (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:21:34 <vanila> how you make a linked list in C: .... 1000 lines specific to a single data type.. >300 bugs 09:21:41 --- quit: M_F_B (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 09:21:53 <chirpsalot> vanila: or void* :P 09:21:54 --- join: Kiryx_ (~Kiryx@sub234-190.elpos.net) joined #haskell 09:21:55 --- join: nilsi__ (~nilsi@95.143.193.132) joined #haskell 09:22:00 <vanila> tru! 09:22:07 --- quit: BlankVerse (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 09:22:10 <chirpsalot> vanila: in that case >1000 bugs :) 09:22:14 <vanila> haha 09:22:25 * chirpsalot is a C programmer. 09:22:33 <chirpsalot> It's so invigorating to get this off my chest :P. 09:22:45 <vanila> yea same :) 09:22:56 --- quit: Takle (Remote host closed the connection) 09:22:58 <nclarke> yitz, Maior: Yeah, I was made very happy the other week when an offhand comment about homosexuality was picked up on immediately. It made me proud to be part of a community which is deliberately trying to be inclusive 09:23:06 <chirpsalot> vanila: Algebr this is actually probably another reason why standard libraries for structures don't exist. Generic ones are... Not really well supported by the language. 09:23:13 <yitz> however in this case, i don't think it was so problematic. it was a criticism of traditional male "macho" behavior, which is one of the big reasons why previous lack of gender inclusiveness was a serious drag on quality in the software industry. 09:23:31 --- join: perspectival (perspectiv@nat/redhat/x-zjnvoidqgsnkdfqe) joined #haskell
<cieloesazul> so, i'm really confused about indenting my xmonad.hs file in emacs. is there some other way to indent my haskell file automatically? I erroneously indented the whole file and now it won't compile :(
Name:
Anonymous2014-06-06 9:21
ONE WORD, FORCED NONINDENTATION OF THE CODE, THREAD OVER!
The whole “correctness proof” line is silly because *no one writes correctness proofs*. Real programs – programs that solve real problems – are generally large and complex enough that even if you’re using a language like Haskell, writing a correctness proof *still* isn’t practical. Sure, you can easily write a correctness proof for an implementation of a binary search tree in Haskell. You *can* write a correctness proof for that in, say, Java. But the Haskell proof will be easier and cleaner, and you’ll be able to trust the connection between the code and the proof much more than you could in Java. But really, a good set of tests – which you *should* be writing, whether you’re programming in Java, C, or Haskell – does as good a job of verifying the correctness of something simple like that. And for anything significantly more complicated than that, people just *don’t* write proofs. I’ve certainly *never* seen a correctness proof for a Haskell program, except in papers arguing about how provable correctness is in Haskell. (Does GHC have correctness proofs? I doubt it. It’s certainly had quite its share of bugs, which means that either it’s correctness isn’t proven, or the proof is wrong!)
Name:
Anonymous2014-06-08 9:35
>>32 JVM has been formally verified and proven correct. Also folks in various mission-critical applications certainly care about proofs. But for the most part you're right: formally veryfying a program means only that you've wasted a lot of time and now you need to formally verify your formal verification.
21:18:37 <chrisdotcode> guys, I keep getting a " Could not find module ‘Data.Text’" error when using cabal sandbox? 21:19:11 <chrisdotcode> is it that I need to add text to build-depends? 21:19:16 <chrisdotcode> but isn't it in base? 21:19:30 --- join: arrdem (~arrdem@107.170.114.33) joined #haskell 21:19:40 --- join: crembo (~crembo@S0106001ff33f033b.vc.shawcable.net) joined #haskell 21:19:42 <shachaf> This channel isn't all guys, for what it's worth. 21:19:55 <shachaf> text isn't in base. That's why it has a package name. 21:19:55 --- quit: corgifex (Remote host closed the connection) 21:20:11 <chrisdotcode> data Guys = Guys | Girls 21:20:22 <shachaf> hilarious 21:20:22 --- quit: gratimax (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:20:41 --- join: normanrichards (~textual@cpe-72-177-14-169.austin.res.rr.com) joined #haskell 21:20:48 --- quit: sritchie (Quit: sritchie) 21:20:50 <ion> heh 21:21:01 --- join: gratimax (~gratimax@c-67-161-31-13.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #haskell 21:21:18 <chrisdotcode> but in all seriousness, shachaf, I didn't get a "it is a member of the hidden package text", as I'd usually get for another library 21:21:23 --- join: mjang (63b1d945@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.177.217.69) joined #haskell 21:21:49 <shachaf> I was in all seriousness too. 21:22:04 <chrisdotcode> sorry, clarified improperly. 21:22:09 --- quit: stephenjudkins (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 21:22:10 <shachaf> But OK. Data.Text isn't in base. It's in a package called text. I've never used cabal sandbox and don't know how it works. 21:22:58 --- join: shintahW2 (~oer894n@c83-248-105-252.bredband.comhem.se) joined #haskell 21:23:03 <chrisdotcode> alright, so that'll probably solve my problem, thank you. 21:23:03 <chrisdotcode> but for those of you who *do* use cabal sandboxes, this time it didn't give me a "is a member of the hidden package text" error this time, any particular reason? 21:33:45 <ion> shachaf: You should try the cabal sandbox, it’s great. 21:52:42 <ab9rf> fwiw, i think of "guys" as gender-neutral these days.... 22:09:10 <mayski> not a native speaker but that what I was thinking since as far as I can remember 22:09:23 <mayski> maybe what was meant was "Chiefly British Slang. a grotesquely dressed person. " 22:09:27 <mayski> ? 22:10:05 * hackagebot bytable 0.0.0.2 - data from/to ByteString http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytable-0.0.0.2 (YoshikuniJujo) 22:10:06 <ion> I’m not a native speaker either, but i was also under the impression it’s gender-neutral.