#haskell

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08:09:12 <rwbarton> haasn: for instance, just comparing "main = mapM_ print [1..10000000]" to a C program using printf, it is already only ~5 times slower
08:10:00 <albeit> Why "already only"? Is that faster than you would expect?
08:10:02 <vanila> Why is haskell so slow?
08:10:18 <rwbarton> I am just responding to <haasn> I guess for String, “only an order of magnitude” would count as “surprisingly efficient”
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08:10:34 <mmachenry1> vanila: Maybe Haskell just woke up.
08:10:44 --- nick: mmachenry1 -> mmachenry
08:10:58 <Maior> vanila: do you just sit in channels to troll them? the Django stuff yesterday about the master/slave stuff was unsubtle
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08:11:16 <Maior> (for a flexible value of yesterday that means "some days in the recent past")
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08:11:41 <mmachenry> Maior: I guess I *was* born yesterday ;)
08:11:45 <napping> Is there an easy way to expand unicode ligature characters (I really just need "ff" and "ffi", guess I could hardcode them)
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08:12:09 <Maior> mmachenry: :P
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08:12:35 <napping> Data.Text.ICU.Normalize probably does it somehow
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08:14:20 <absence> has it been decided when the applicative monad proposal will hit ghc head? anytime soon, or closer to 7.10 release?
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08:15:40 <Maior> absence: ooh got a link handy?
08:15:51 <vanila> Maior: Since you're ignoring my PM I'll say it here: that was very rude and unfair of you
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08:16:31 <Maior> vanila: I have PMs from non-friends disabled
08:16:31 <ion> {-# LANGUAGE ffi #-}
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08:17:03 <Maior> vanila: meanwhile, I stand by it as a valid question from the data I have
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08:17:29 <vanila> Maior, move discussion to PM
08:17:40 <Maior> I'll pass
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08:19:20 <mmachenry> Maior: It's not really a valid question yet. I don't have your data and your question is underspecified. Unless I missed something which is possible, I lost network a moment ago.
08:19:27 <absence> Maior: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Functor-Applicative-Monad_Proposal
08:19:44 <ion> vanila: Pastebin your code and we can try to figure out why it’s too slow. Otherwise the question can only be answered with mu.
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08:19:59 <rwbarton> absence: there is no scheduling of when things hit GHC HEAD in my experience. either someone gets around to it, or not
08:20:10 <Maior> absence: cheers
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* Now talking on #haskell-ops
* Topic for #haskell-ops is: [#haskell moderators : http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/IRC_channel/Management - Users are welcome to join for specific discussion but asked not to idle ]
* Topic for #haskell-ops set by glguy (Tue Dec 18 17:12:59 2012)
<vanila> im getting harassed by some guy from another channel
<vanila> Maior
<Saizan> vanila: seems like the problem got resolved by itself
<vanila> how?
<vanila> I put him on ignore for attacking me, did he leave or what
<vanila> ]
<Saizan> there's no attacking going on
<vanila> I can see that you're not going to help me
<Saizan> i believe you don't need any help from an op
<Saizan> vanila: any other request? otherwise users are asked to not idle on this channel
* glguy (~glguy@unaffiliated/glguy) has joined
* ChanServ gives voice to glguy
<vanila> glguy, got a sec? was getting harassed by some guy from another channel
<glguy> in #haskell?
<vanila> yes
<glguy> What was the issue?
<vanila> being hostile, attacking me over some political disagreement several days ago in another channel
<vanila> talking about me and insulting me in public and refusing to resolve it in PM
<Saizan> glguy: vanila got called a troll after asking "why is haskell so slow?" and apparatently being unpleasant in other channels according to Maior
<vanila> http://pastebin.com/mMGxJQEz
<glguy> OK, but that was a single message from Maior, presumably there is some other series of messages in channel I missed?
<vanila> would rather Saizan not be involved in this
<byorgey> vanila: sorry, you don't get to choose which ops are involved.
<glguy> Well, Saizan's one of our finest moderators. We don't have a hierarchy for you to appeal through.
<glguy> The stuff I saw in the logs looked pretty mild, actually.
<vanila> I'm unhappy about the hostile treatement
<Saizan> vanila: being called a troll is not the nicest thing, we can agree. That exchange doesn't make Maior someone persecuting you though
<Saizan> vanila: also, coming to #haskell to ask "why is haskell so slow?" out of the blue would make most people think your intentions are not the most genuine
<vanila> would rather Saizan not be involved in this
<Saizan> vanila: so, as to save anyone's time, I will ask you again to leave, or I will have to ban you from this channel
<vanila> <vanila> I can see that you're not going to help me
<Saizan> vanila: last change to give any evidence you're being attacked, to me.
<Saizan> *chance
<vanila> glguy, byorgey help?
<glguy> You have to recognize that when you join #* and ask "Why is * slow" without any additional qualification, you'll probably be called a troll
<vanila> glguy, I didn't join and ask
<shapr> I would certainly back up Saizan's decision, whatever it may be.
<glguy> and a single response in channel is not a pattern of harrassment
<glguy> and now the exchange is over, so it's not even an ongoing issue
<vanila> shapr, When someone was saying how nice and friendly the channel was you mentioned something about the social norms being periodically enforced
<shapr> Yes, and this is a representative instance of that.
<vanila> shapr, I thought I get help from you guys over hostile treatment
<shapr> vanila: The rules for #haskell are "Be Nice, or Else"
<vanila> shapr, can you tell that to him then?
<shapr> From what I've seen, Saizan is dealing with your 'case', and I trust Saizan's judgement.
<shapr> If Saizan believes that you have done something ban-worthy, then I believe that is true.
<vanila> no he isn't, I've been trying to get a second opinion but he keeps pushing in
<shapr> vanila: I would suggest that you understand what Saizan felt was bad for the #haskell community and attempt to correct that.
<shapr> If you've already passed that point, have a nice life :-)
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<vanila> I don't understand what you just said but "have a nice life" is usually used as a sarcastic insult - kind of feel like you're making fun of me
<shapr> If you haven't passed that point, try communicating with Saizan, understanding his point, correcting the issue, and you might get to hang around more.
<shapr> vanila: No, I am pathologically sincere.
<vanila> oh are you threatening to ban me from the channel or something
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<Saizan> vanila: so, I can ask Maior about not calling people trolls, and you should try formulating questions less provocatively
<vanila> Saizan, I would happy to comply with that
<vanila> be happy to*
<shapr> vanila: if it's good for the community, I would certainly ban you from the channel. But Saizan is dealing with whatever is going on, and I trust his judgement.
<Saizan> vanila: ok, see you on #haskell then
<vanila> shapr, Pretty upset about all this, I feel you really dislike me
<shapr> vanila: You are imagining that.
<vanila> I'm getting it from the way you talk to me
<shapr> That's certainly your choice.
<byorgey> vanila: tone is very hard to convey over IRC. I have met shapr in person and I can guarantee that he does not dislike you.
<vanila> It's like you're making fun of me, trying to provoke me
<shapr> vanila: Nope, I'm a nice guy who wants the #haskell channel to be a productive friendly community.
<shapr> vanila: questions like "Why is Haskell so slow?" are directly provocative.
<shapr> That question starts with the basic assumption that Haskell is slow.
<vanila> <rwbarton> haasn: for instance, just comparing "main = mapM_ print [1..10000000]" to a C program using printf, it is already only ~5 times slower
<vanila> <albeit> Why "already only"? Is that faster than you would expect?
<vanila> <vanila> Why is haskell so slow?
<shapr> Yes, that does not change what I said.
<vanila> I didn't want to be taken out of context
<vanila> I've seen research of compilers for strongly typed languages that are much faster than C - because of the typing
<shapr> So, you could say: Why is that bit of Haskell code 5 times slower than C?
<shapr> How you say things affects the way people understand what you say.
<vanila> I accept your criticism but please understand that the guy originally policing my language was doing it because of political disagreement in past discussions elsewhere
<shapr> You are still obligated to be nice on #haskell if you wish to participate.
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<vanila> Are you saying I wasn't being nice?
<vanila> I don't agree with that

okay, and?

09:09:10 <l4u_c> It took 10s. Is there something wrong?
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09:09:16 <bartavelle> because this package is unmaintained, and the mask is opposite of what is conventional
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09:10:31 <l4u_c> It might be related to the outdated attoparsec package referenced in yesod platform?
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09:11:08 <bartavelle> ah ther's network-ip
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09:11:37 <toonces> alright I need a little bit of help here. Trying to list the first n primes. 'divides' check whether x devides (mod) any number in xs http://lpaste.net/8842879243424628736 . Where is the error?
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09:13:22 <shapr> vanila: Seriously, be nice, or else
09:13:32 <vanila> http://pastebin.com/qx9d44rj
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09:16:46 <vanila> byorgey, PM?
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09:18:16 <ion> vanila: Private messaging random people is considered rude.
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09:19:26 <vanila> is everyone just trying to make me feel as unwelcome and hated as possible today? :(
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09:19:33 <hyPiRion> ion: Wouldn't that entirely depend on what you mean by "random" and what your intent is?
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09:20:08 <shapr> vanila: I'd suggest a bunch of sleep, a bunch of exercise, and some really good food.
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I can think how see feels but is is misbehaving
If I see her in #haskel or anywhere I will pm her to get to /prog/
in this thread

what!

Well, why is Haskell so slow? Because the code was not compiled. The C equivalent was written for a console program while this was executed on ghci most presumably.

Also, Maior called him out on past trolling. Godamn retarded slave master bullshit.

>>7
I think she just said to them that the master slave was stupid
also you are mean and you say stuff without knowing just because of hate

http://django-irc-logs.com/2014/may/27/

# <vanila> has anyone brought this up
# <vanila> https://github.com/django/django/pull/2692
# <apollo13> vanila: no :)
# <vanila> i cant access the googlegroups discussion
# ...

I did not know django sucked that much

master/slave should be changed to pimp/whore

or better yet, whitepimp/niggerwhore

This was a disappointing read, I thought it was going to be funny on some level but it was just general IRC retardation.

Everyone in this thread is now banned.

>>13
ehhe ehehhe heheh ehheheh ehehheh ehhhhhhh?

Why is most space taken up by "join" and "quit" messages? How stupid are you? Thank goodness I don't use IRC.

an irc bot that acted like vanila would be entertaining and would be an easier way to pass a turing test.

boring

>>11-12
Does /prog/ wants to make a database?

/msg ChanServ CLEAR #haskell USERS
/msg ChanServ DROP #haskell

what a victim blaming shitlord, chasing her into the channel to keep threatening

IRC drama

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09:15:58 <Algebr> Seems like a massive waste of duplicated effort.
09:16:08 <chirpsalot> Algebr: oh, it totally is!
09:16:26 <Yuu_chan> Real mean write their own data structures for each project.
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09:16:29 <chirpsalot> Whenever I need a linked list in C... I just write my own.
09:16:31 <Yuu_chan> *Real men
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09:16:42 <Maior> Yuu_chan: please don't do that
09:16:51 <chirpsalot> It's kind of just what the culture is with C, I guess?
09:17:17 <Yuu_chan> Maior: do what?
09:17:23 <Maior> Yuu_chan: "real men"
09:17:39 <pjdelport> Yuu_chan: real mean men? :)
09:17:46 <Yuu_chan> Are those kind of jokes banned?..
09:17:54 <dfranke> eacameron: for example, if A and B are semigroups (and I'll use + for the semigroup operation because I can't remember what ekmett uses in the semigroup package), then f and g are an isomorphism of semigroups if forall x,y : A, f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y), and forall x,y : B, f'(x + y) = f'(x) + f'(y).
09:18:05 <Maior> Yuu_chan: pass; I wasn't aware of any form of "ban list"
09:18:06 <yitz> dfranke: <>
09:18:07 <edwardk> <>
09:19:31 <yitz> dfranke: and f is an isomorphism of sets
09:19:49 <nclarke> Yuu_chan: I doubt they're banned, but those kind of comments help perpetuate the idea of programming as a "man's game", and thus tend to (probably unintentionally) exclude others from the community
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09:20:01 <Maior> nclarke: thanks, was trying to word that
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09:20:44 <Yuu_chan> My bad.
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09:21:12 <lwm> nclarke: Yuu_chan: while off topic, this is really interesting as to whether that age old classic programming joke is now sexist
09:21:14 <yitz> Maior, nclarke: we definitely are trying very hard in our community to be sensitive to those kinds of issues
09:21:15 <dfranke> in this case, we already have the appropriate established connotation from the term "Real Programmers", which happens to be gender-neutral :-)
09:21:16 <vanila> how you make a linked list in haskell: data L a = N | C a (L a)
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09:21:34 <vanila> how you make a linked list in C: .... 1000 lines specific to a single data type.. >300 bugs
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09:21:53 <chirpsalot> vanila: or void* :P
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09:22:00 <vanila> tru!
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09:22:10 <chirpsalot> vanila: in that case >1000 bugs :)
09:22:14 <vanila> haha
09:22:25 * chirpsalot is a C programmer.
09:22:33 <chirpsalot> It's so invigorating to get this off my chest :P.
09:22:45 <vanila> yea same :)
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09:22:58 <nclarke> yitz, Maior: Yeah, I was made very happy the other week when an offhand comment about homosexuality was picked up on immediately. It made me proud to be part of a community which is deliberately trying to be inclusive
09:23:06 <chirpsalot> vanila: Algebr this is actually probably another reason why standard libraries for structures don't exist. Generic ones are... Not really well supported by the language.
09:23:13 <yitz> however in this case, i don't think it was so problematic. it was a criticism of traditional male "macho" behavior, which is one of the big reasons why previous lack of gender inclusiveness was a serious drag on quality in the software industry.
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>>22 wow. someone doesnt get laid.

That Maior hipster likes django and the change they made, wow

#haskell #yolo #swag #notallmen #yesallwomen

>>1
i kollekt mi data fum my pantz n it accumulate nice n neat like da science do

<cieloesazul> so, i'm really confused about indenting my xmonad.hs file in emacs. is there some other way to indent my haskell file automatically? I erroneously indented the whole file and now it won't compile :(

ONE WORD, FORCED NONINDENTATION OF THE CODE, THREAD OVER!

haskell

http://girlloveshaskell.com/
NO THANK YOU!

>>29
If Haskell is so good, why do they write sites in PHP and use Apache?

>>29

we are both(...)open-sourced

ｗｗｗｗｗｗｗ

The whole “correctness proof” line is silly because *no one writes correctness proofs*. Real programs – programs that solve real problems – are generally large and complex enough that even if you’re using a language like Haskell, writing a correctness proof *still* isn’t practical. Sure, you can easily write a correctness proof for an implementation of a binary search tree in Haskell. You *can* write a correctness proof for that in, say, Java. But the Haskell proof will be easier and cleaner, and you’ll be able to trust the connection between the code and the proof much more than you could in Java. But really, a good set of tests – which you *should* be writing, whether you’re programming in Java, C, or Haskell – does as good a job of verifying the correctness of something simple like that. And for anything significantly more complicated than that, people just *don’t* write proofs. I’ve certainly *never* seen a correctness proof for a Haskell program, except in papers arguing about how provable correctness is in Haskell. (Does GHC have correctness proofs? I doubt it. It’s certainly had quite its share of bugs, which means that either it’s correctness isn’t proven, or the proof is wrong!)

>>32
JVM has been formally verified and proven correct. Also folks in various mission-critical applications certainly care about proofs. But for the most part you're right: formally veryfying a program means only that you've wasted a lot of time and now you need to formally verify your formal verification.

mission-critical applications

>>32
How about seL4? It's the only L4 kernel that is not full of ani

>>30
Why do they use git instead of DARCS? Why do they use Gnome^tm instead of XMonad?

If Haskell is so good, why do they write sites in PHP and use Apache?

because Yesod is written by kikes, http://www.snoyman.com/
``I live in Maalot, Israel''

>>37
I use XMonad instead of Gnome.

xmonad is great

21:18:37 <chrisdotcode> guys, I keep getting a " Could not find module ‘Data.Text’" error when using cabal sandbox?
21:19:11 <chrisdotcode> is it that I need to add text to build-depends?
21:19:16 <chrisdotcode> but isn't it in base?
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21:19:42 <shachaf> This channel isn't all guys, for what it's worth.
21:19:55 <shachaf> text isn't in base. That's why it has a package name.
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21:20:11 <chrisdotcode> data Guys = Guys | Girls
21:20:22 <shachaf> hilarious
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21:20:50 <ion> heh
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21:21:18 <chrisdotcode> but in all seriousness, shachaf, I didn't get a "it is a member of the hidden package text", as I'd usually get for another library
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21:21:49 <shachaf> I was in all seriousness too.
21:22:04 <chrisdotcode> sorry, clarified improperly.
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21:22:10 <shachaf> But OK. Data.Text isn't in base. It's in a package called text. I've never used cabal sandbox and don't know how it works.
21:22:58 --- join: shintahW2 (~oer894n@c83-248-105-252.bredband.comhem.se) joined #haskell
21:23:03 <chrisdotcode> alright, so that'll probably solve my problem, thank you.
21:23:03 <chrisdotcode> but for those of you who *do* use cabal sandboxes, this time it didn't give me a "is a member of the hidden package text" error this time, any particular reason?
21:33:45 <ion> shachaf: You should try the cabal sandbox, it’s great.
21:52:42 <ab9rf> fwiw, i think of "guys" as gender-neutral these days....
22:09:10 <mayski> not a native speaker but that what I was thinking since as far as I can remember
22:09:23 <mayski> maybe what was meant was "Chiefly British Slang. a grotesquely dressed person. "
22:09:27 <mayski> ?
22:10:05 * hackagebot bytable 0.0.0.2 - data from/to ByteString http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytable-0.0.0.2 (YoshikuniJujo)
22:10:06 <ion> I’m not a native speaker either, but i was also under the impression it’s gender-neutral.

shachaf used to be cool

HASKELL IS EPIC XDDDD, I USE HASKELL BECAUSE I AM A E/G/IN FEMINIST