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Is the Sussman...

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 13:13

...coming up with a new programming language?
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/propagators/
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/We-Really-Dont-Know-How-To-Compute
"I'm at the Strange Loop conference and Gerald Sussman said that all languages are obsolete but called Haskell "the most advanced obsolete language he knows". That's kind of a compliment I guess." - deech

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 13:27

The problem with abstraction is that you lose performance.
Unless someone finds a way to get abstraction without losing performance, it's all shit.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 13:29

He's coming up with a new paradigm.

"Scheme-Propagators is the most advanced programming language built from the ground up to support the propagator-oriented paradigm."

- http://www.mindmachineproject.org/proj/prop/

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 13:31

PLAY WITH THE PROPAGATOR, faggots

http://www.mindmachineproject.org/proj/prop/propagator.tar

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 13:34

>>7
made by a Jew
Probably Python or PHP quality.

Name: Cudder !MhMRSATORI 2014-11-22 14:09

It incorporates explicit structure to support the integration of redundant pieces and subsystems that solve problems in several different ways.
What the bloody bollocks!? Intentionally creating bloat?

Fortunately it seems far less scary if you read the rest of it. Just like SICP, this is pure mental masturbation. All he did was reinvented lazy evaluation and made it a little more explicit.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 14:42

>>9
Do you agree with >>5-san?

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 14:48

Propagate my anus

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 20:09

>>11
Propagate your dubs

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 20:31

>>9
FIFTEEEN YEARS ON DA KERNEL WILL DO DAT TO YA

MENTAL MASTURBATIONS, WHERE ARE YOU NOW?!

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 23:33

Gerald Sussman [...] called Haskell "the most advanced [...] language he knows"
Will you niggers finally shut up? Lisp and Haskell are not direct opposites to each other.

Will the "shut up haskell faggot you've never used lisp" niggers finally shut up?
Will the "lisp faggots are too dumb to understand haskell" niggers finally shut the fuck up?

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-22 23:42

microsoft excel already does this

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 1:21

*
"GRUNNUR"
;

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 1:53

microsoft excel does Dallas

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 7:00

>>14
But lisp faggots really are too dumb to understand Haskell.

http://ro-che.info/ccc/17

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 7:35

>>18
you're new here, go back to /g/ nigger

Name: lispperrr 2014-11-23 8:32

>>18
But Haskell faggots really are too dumb to understand agda.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 8:37

>>20
Because Agda is not a real language.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 8:48

>>18
http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/dynamic-languages-are-static-languages/

And this is precisely what is wrong with dynamically typed languages: rather than affording the freedom to ignore types, they instead impose the bondage of restricting attention to a single type!
False

Even if in a particular situation we are absolutely certain that a particular value is, say, an integer
Premature optimization

you are depriving yourself of the ability to state and enforce the invariant that the value at a particular program point must be an integer.
That is a trivial invariant. Practical invariants depend upon values and relationships, which cannot be enforced with types unless there are dependant types.

For another, you are imposing a serious bit of run-time overhead
False. Recursive type inference.

Either you give up on modular development, and rely on whole program analysis ...
It's trivial.

or you introduce a static type system precisely for the purpose of recording inter-modular dependencies
Not needed. This can easily be infered by the machine.

The whole-program approach does not scale,
Yes it does.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 9:04

>>19
Stop it.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 9:23

>>22
You know, a true statement doesn't literally become false just because you write "False".

This optimization is not always premature, yet the unityped languages deprive us of it in all cases. The multityped languages, if they're decent, offer the escape hatch of parametric polymorphism for cases when it is indeed a premature optimization. Again, multityped languages give more freedom.

If it is a trivial invariant, then unityped languages are shit for not letting us express even such a trivial invariant. Moreover, despite the triviality of that invariant, it actually accounts for the majority of errors during develompent. Not the most important and hard to locate errors, but at least the majority of errors. Which is already a lot of help, especially when refactoring code or rapidly prototyping.

If "recursive type inference" really worked, the overhead in "dynamic languages" wouldn't be there. Run some benchmarks, will you?

You know, a non-trivial problem doesn't just become trivial because once write "It's trivial".

Etc etc, your whole post is a bunch of baseless assertions while Harper always gives clear and argumented opinions. You're full of shit.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 10:25

You know, a true statement doesn't literally become false just because you write "False".
And a statement is not true just because you say it is true.

This optimization is not always premature
You or someone else can always extend a program to a point where the type constraint must be undone.

if they're decent, offer the escape hatch of parametric polymorphism
So a type system is good if it's easy to pretend you don't have it in the first place.

If it is a trivial invariant, then unityped languages are shit for not letting us express even such a trivial invariant.
Correct types don't get you much unless you have dependent types. It's not worth it. Use a better system to test invariants like compiler aware assertions.

Moreover, despite the triviality of that invariant, it actually accounts for the majority of errors during develompent.
You don't need to declare static types to detect type errors. Recursive type inference is sufficient for detecting type errors at compile time. You can do this in dynamically typed languages.

If "recursive type inference" really worked, the overhead in "dynamic languages" wouldn't be there. Run some benchmarks, will you?
You mean "if recursive type inference was really implemented for mainstream compiler of shit dynamic language I'm thinking of, then it would be faster". If you want an example, see sbcl. Your reasoning is also a fallacy. Just because an implementation does not yet realize the idea, does not mean the idea is not possible to implement.

You know, a non-trivial problem doesn't just become trivial because once write "It's trivial".
And a problem is not non-trivial just because you say it is non-trivial.

Etc etc, your whole post is a bunch of baseless assertions while Harper always gives clear and argumented opinions. You're full of shit.
I provided counter examples to Harper's supporting points. That is all. Get what you want out of that, or nothing at all. It's up to you.

Name: Bill ``BASIC'' Gates 2014-11-23 10:33

lol look at these nerds fighting
us C programming alpha males get pussy while you nerdo laspers and huskels get nigger or kike dick

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 11:11

Mercury is better than both.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 11:49

>>25
And a statement is not true just because you say it is true.
You need to read PFPL and that post by Harper. Then TAPL. And only then can you come back and continue this conversation. Until then, I won't argue with your ignorance. Au revoir!

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 11:55

Au revoir
Fucking frenchy!

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 15:59

http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/44215/MIT-CSAIL-TR-2009-002.pdf

The Art of the Propagator

A reference to "The Art Of The Interpreter" (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheArtOfTheInterpreter).
He's at it again! A new revolutionary language? Yes, please!

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 16:01

In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
"What are you doing?" asked Minsky.
"I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe," Sussman replied.
"Why is the net wired randomly?" asked Minsky.
"I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play," Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes.
"Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher.
"So that the room will be empty."
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 16:40

>>27
No, Clean.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 17:12

>>32
Old, un-maintained and has no community.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 17:44

>>33
You talking about Mercury? Hell, they both are.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 17:50

>>34
Mercury 14.01.1 released
Release Information is available here.
08 September 2014
TSK.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 18:19

>>35
Its reddit has only 6 topics => it has no community.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 18:31

>>36
How about checking the mailing lists then.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 18:45

>>37
You'll get extra credit if you do.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 18:55

>>38
But I did, I would not say that if I had not.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 19:01

>>39
So what are the results?

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 19:11

>>40
The Mercury users archive had a maximum of 46 messages only in October. The rest months of this year have about 15 messages on average. The developer mailing list is much more popular with a maximum of 72 messages in September. That's seems pretty good for a not-so-well known language.
The last message in Clean is from May 7.

I am happy to help people that lack the ability to read mailing lists.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 19:29

>>28
You and this harper dude are both ignorant though. I would have been more inclined to agree with you if I wasn't used to sbcl catching all of my type errors at compile time without needing a single type declaration. But whatever.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 19:44

Mercury is a functional programming language. We are talking about propagator-oriented programming languages. Get that shit out of here.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 19:52

check'em

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 19:59

>>42
That's because the Common Lisp type system can't express anything more abstract than an array of integers. Even the generic functions are runtime-dispatched, pfft.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 20:05

Penetration-oriented

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 20:09

>>45
You are missing the point. I'm talking about what sbcl does, not what the common lisp standard demands. It's detecting these type errors by collecting constraints based upon how you use arguments to functions (in fact sbcl will trace type constraints as you step into if statements). You can build these constraints for all functions in a module and generate a signature for each one. Then check that the generated constraints are satisfied when a function from another module is called. For generating efficient code, you have the choice of using a single function that handles generic types, or multiple compilations of the same function that handle different type cases. These would be compiled upon demand when called from other modules. In order for this to scale, an intermediate representation of the function in it's generic form would be made available to the other modules. C++ solves this problem badly with templates.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 20:23

When Harper was saying >>47 was not feasible, it sounded like he was talking about ocaml's type inference and its module system. Ocaml is shit. Need I say more?

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-23 23:02

haskell is too high level, makes me feel restricted and closed off from the machine.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 0:02

>>49
That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 1:22

>>50
YES IT IS YOU FREEDOM HATING COMMIE
IF DOING ARITHMETIC IS TOO HARD FOR YOU THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE AROUND COMPUTERS HUH NIGGER

Name: Cudder !MhMRSATORI 2014-11-24 5:27

>>10
Depends on the particular type of abstraction. Abstraction that makes code (the binary, not the source) smaller also tends to make it faster, due to cache effects. The problem is when it's overused.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 5:59

overuse my anus

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 10:40

>>1

You act like your system is NASA with a hundred users. I act like mine is a C64
in a kid's basement. I don't need protection. DOS had no protection. It's a
kid in his basement. Don't make it a fucken monstrocity with 20 fucken gear
semitrailer because you want to force the poor kid to do file permissions
because your an arrogant annal retentive nigger who sadistically likes to preach
elaborite cult man-made laws because you are a fucken pervert gay faggot. Gay
faggots want to make everyone dance around with penis dangling, for no reason
but it is the right thing for them to do. I have a gay brother, LOL.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 17:10

So Sussman basically reinvented pipes. And he also failed to provide a single compelling example of propagators. Mental masturbation indeed.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 18:11

>>55
Shut the fuck up, Cudder.

Name: L. A. Calculus !jYCj6s4P.g 2014-11-24 20:11

>>1
HAHA, LOOKS LIKE OL SUSSMAN'S FINALLY GONE SENILE

N TO THINK, YEARS AGO HE WAS TALKIN SHIT ABOUT HOW I WAS GOIN INSANE N ALL DAT BULLSHIT

WAT A FUCKIN MATH BOI RETOID

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 20:23

>>57
Don't worry, you've gone senile years ago.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-24 20:40

>>58
No, that's not true for lambda-sama.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-25 8:03

pipe my anus.

Name: BEST NEW MEMES 2014-11-25 15:59

SEMEN PROPAGATOR

Name: TPOBCI 2014-11-25 16:41

The Pleasure Of Being Cummed Inside

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-25 17:07

I propose that the Intentional Misuse of Literally (IMOL) be a new meme.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-25 17:43

prison cupcakes

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-25 18:51

literally anus

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-26 7:44

literally dubs

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-26 18:24

This literally meme isn't funny; it's retarded. I understand it's a sarcastic take on how the retards don't know what "literally" means, but with its use we won't be able to know who's joking and who's retarded.
Please, stop!

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-26 18:43

>>67
Great, they won't stop now. Thank you for putting so much thought in your post.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-26 18:50

>>67
Sure, it's literally bad, but is it literally Abelson bad?

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-26 19:08

>>61
Semen treats everyone to pastry with shit.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-26 19:32

>>67
but with its use we won't be able to know who's joking and who's retarded
http://www.calgaryautism.com/characteristics.htm
Difficulty understanding jokes, figures of speech or sarcasm.
Maybe you should get checked.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-26 21:24

>>67
Don't worry, we'll still know you're retarded.

Name: Anonymous 2014-11-27 2:59

>>67
Aren't you the guy who made the post that started this in the first place? You're literally the only one who cares. You're also literally wrong on the topic.

Name: Anonymous 2014-12-02 15:35

>>73
No.

Name: Anonymous 2014-12-03 4:57

>>74
Umena Noa?

Name: Anonymous 2014-12-03 22:40

>>75
Noa.

Name: Anonymous 2014-12-05 3:50

check 'em

Name: Anonymous 2014-12-05 5:51

>>1

Maybe his students. Sussman is too old to come with anything.
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