The Lisp Paradox

Inferior tools allow less intelligent people to create what those with greater intelligence are unable to create with Lisp.

What does this paradox mean?

Are people who choose to use Lisp actually less intelligent than people who use other languages? Is Lisp actually inferior to and less productive than these other languages? Do the few people who are able to accomplish something in Lisp actually choose it for bragging rights, the way handicaps are used in sports?

Why do people put assembly language and Lisp in the same category of difficult languages? Shouldn't the high productivity of Lisp make it one of the easy languages, like Visual Basic, Python, PHP, and JavaScript? Why is it considered a difficult accomplishment to create something useful in Lisp?

>>36

what is it about Lisp that prevents it from being used to make desktop software?

There are old programs made with lisp and there are bigger programs that embed lisp like gimp.

Lisp lacks modern tools for developing GUI. Why use lisp when you can just drag and drop programs and clue it together with js?

>>38 you know, pointing out a program initially developed in 1982 when Lisp was all the rage is more of an example of software inertia.

>>41

Lisp lacks modern tools for developing GUI.

Can't some superprogrammer throw together a bunch of macros and higher-order functions to solve this problem?

I see, lisp weenies have mastered the art of non-terminating recursion. "Why aren't there any useful programs written in Lisp?" -- "Oh, you see, it's just because we don't have such useful programs as GUI toolkits. Quite simple really". Lemme guess, you don't have nice GUI toolkits because nobody bothered to write a good FFI? And no FFI because I don't know some other prerequisite software artifact is missing?

>>42
First, pick a Lisp. Next, spend 5 seconds in DDG.
http://www.cliki.net/GUI
https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1jq5rk/common_lisp_gui_options/

Now I put on my less-dismissive-and-anusoidal-than-thou hat. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg¹ problem. In order for people to spend time on GUI libraries, a language ecosystem should show itself viable in the GUI realm; however, availability of core GUI libraries is often a perceived prerequisite for viability.
So yes, someone must spend the time and effort to break into a new realm, and it often takes a few iterations to get everything stable. This happened with Javascript outside the browser and Python in data science, and I am certain there are other examples.

[1] Speaking of such: http://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html#graphics

>>43

First, pick a Lisp. Next, spend 5 seconds in DDG.

Got you. There's no good desktop software written in Lisp because there's no good GUI toolkits. But there's no problem with Lisp causing the lack of good GUI toolkits, in fact look here, a shitton of GUI toolkits!

This happened with Javascript outside the browser and Python in data science, and I am certain there are other examples.

How can you say that the chicken and egg problem is the main thing holding Lisp back, then proceed to point out how JS and Python had to overcome it too? They have overcome it, Lisp have not, this where the train of thought stops, everyone please leave the train?

They have overcome it, Lisp have not, this where the train of thought stops, everyone please leave the train?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

>>44
I wasn't talking about desktop software, I was talking about GUI toolkits. In reality, can you take any arbitrary piece of software and tell what language it was written in? Even if you could, you can't cherry-pick a few pieces of desktop software that weren't written in CL, because that is not how you prove the non-existence of things.
From this, your original postulation that "there is no good desktop software written in Lisp" is not valid. Thus your entire line of reasoning so far is flawed, and as there is no sound and rational response to an argument that is not logically consistent, I'm not surprised you've had the non-productive discussion you have had ITT so far.

They have overcome it, Lisp have not

An earlier draft of >>43 also had mention of a critical mass that is required for widespread adoption. There may well be desktop/GUI CL software, but unlike JS and Python, nobody popular has dedicated any blog posts to the fact (I assume because they are busy making money instead of blogging about whatever hip framework came out last week).

>>39-kun, please tell us about all those big words you learned on Reddit! My favorites are projection and ad hominem. I love them because they make me feel smart and I don't have to think of proper replies anymore! Just throwing a couple of cool Reddit words is enough to win an argument. +1 for the Reddit reference you fine gentleman and scholar ;)

>>47

you can only reach for such vocabulary at reddit
everyone else is communicating with grunts, whistles and snippets of C++

>>48-kun, please tell us about all those big memes you learned on 4chan! My favorites are >implying and cuck. I love them because they make me feel clever and I don't have to think of proper replies anymore! Just throwing a couple of cool 4chan words is enough to win an argument. epic pleb shill bait cuck /b/ro >mfw not on /g/ :^)

>>49
My favorite meme is 4channers pretending to dislike 4chan to accumulate hipster karma. They often complain that 4chan was better in "good old days" and that "newfags" ruined it.

>>46

In reality, can you take any arbitrary piece of software and tell what language it was written in?

If it's open source, sure.

From this, your original postulation that "there is no good desktop software written in Lisp" is not valid.

Show me good desktop software written in Lisp. Your appeal to ignorance is ridiculous, oh yeah, we don't know and can't possibly know, what if there's a lot of software secretly written in Lisp lurking everywhere, but the authors hide this fact from everyone including the lists of totally not toy we promise software written in Lisp.

An earlier draft of >>43 also had mention of a critical mass that is required for widespread adoption. There may well be desktop/GUI CL software, but unlike JS and Python, nobody popular has dedicated any blog posts to the fact (I assume because they are busy making money instead of blogging about whatever hip framework came out last week).

nobody popular has dedicated any blog posts

Are you like 15? Have you heard about this guy called Paul Graham? He runs an obscure tech site hackernews.com, and he also funded this even more obscure site called reddit.com, which was initially written in Lisp btw (that's one legit superior use of Lisp: get funding from PG, six months later rewrite your entire shit in Python over a single long weekend), and said Paul Graham has made a post or two on how Lisp is a totally superior language and using it makes you a programming genius.

I mean, if you're actually 15 and has only recently been let on the internet unsupervised, you might get this impression that Lisp is an obscure language that gets mentioned mostly by prague trolls. I've been around five-ten years ago and I'm telling you: no software technology has ever been hyped as hard as Lisp was hyped back then. You couldn't read a slashdot article on penis enlargement without a gang of smug lisp weenies informing you that you're wasting your time and should read SICP instead.

>>51

Show me good desktop software written in Lisp

maxima

>>51

If it's open source, sure.

So, no.

the authors hide this fact from everyone

More people are interested in writing code for money than bragging about the language they use to write code.

Are you like 15? _{^{etc etc I am a fag}}

DESKTOP software; are you deaf? You change the subject every tıme they are fuckıng you.

Pretty sure the only reason people are put off lisp is loud-mouthed bellends like you screaming about how shit it is and that you shouldn't write code in it because nobody writes code in it.

>>52

maxima

Another 1982 piece of petrified mammoth shit supported entirely by inertia.

>>53

More people are interested in writing code for money than bragging about the language they use to write code.

Maybe. That doesn't prevent a lot of people from doing that. There's a lot of people bragging about various languages they use to write code and various projects they completed. For example, notice the message you get after making a comment here ;-).

Lispers stand out as complaining about being oppressed and how everyone else should use Lisp instead.

But yeah, I totally endorse your conspiracy theory that a lot of software I or you use, and even more web sights are secretly implemented in lisp. It's cute!

DESKTOP software; are you deaf? You change the subject every tıme they are fuckıng you.

What? You claimed that nobody blogs about Lisp and now you complain because blogs are not on the desktop? Are you retarded?

>>54
Come on, fuckwit. I said nobody blogs about desktop lisp software and you start blathering on with an appeal to authority concerning a pair of web forums.

people who like writing week calculator desktop apps ∪ people who are clever enough to write lisp ≈ ∅

>>50
progrider is not 4chan!

bwaaaaaaaahhh -_-
cry moar u little bitch

>>56
Take a course on naive set theory before pulling your smartass act.

>>57
Progrider is more of hackernews/reddit hybrid

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>>57
You can graft a peach branch onto a plum tree, but it will still grow peaches in September.

>>62
That's racist!

>>59
Pull this! *grabs dick*

>>64
Pull request: pending

>>65
Dubs

>>65
Bug tests are taking a while, I expect to have the results soon.

This thread in a nutshell: http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/parphobia.png

Stop curtailing my rights.