Academic liars

If they say they want to make programming better and they use C, teach C, or are not trying to replace C, they are a liar.
If they say C is a good imperative programming language and anything better must be functional or object-oriented, they are a liar.
If they say a simplified or less undefined C will make programming better, they are a liar.
If they say C is too hard to replace, they are a liar.

What loungramming language is this?

I agree, OPie
they should just switch to rust already

where is LAC when you need him? hell, where is Cudder?

>>4

where is LAC

##C

where is Cudder?

working on xir browser

>>5

working on xir browser

somehow I doubt it

>>6
all talk and no action, etc.

>>5
>xir
What imbecilic language is this?

>>8
node.js

Fuck off, anti-C authoritarian.

>>10
It's a free country, so we're all allowed to say anything anti-C without fear of government

>>8
Looks like Modern Colloquial English.

>>10
Universities do not teach that there are better languages than C and C++ for ``native'' software. This emphasis on C and C++ is scaring people away from native programming in compiled languages. It's creating ``hackers'' who treat systems software like throwaway web apps and ``appers'' who are afraid to program without layers of VMs and abstractions. ``Native code'' is scary to these ``appers''. They are using Electron and JavaScript to get away from C. They are compiling to JavaScript to get away from JavaScript. They are afraid to use the language's standard library without some framework. C-based languages, with their bad syntax and semantics, cannot be understood properly.

The ``appers'' are running Electron apps on Docker because they only know about C and C-based languages. Is it ``authoritarian'' to have a problem with this? I think it's more of an education problem than an authority problem. Nobody who knows how to program could possibly think this is a good idea, with or without ``authoritarians'' telling them how they should program.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39930223/how-to-run-an-electron-app-on-docker

>>13
Did read; didn't care. Nice shitpost.

>>13

The ``appers'' are running Electron apps on Docker because they only know about C and C-based languages.

javascript is based on scheme

>>14
Electron on Docker is the perfect C-based stack: JavaScript, C++, C, and Go. Each application includes node.js, Chromium, and Linux.

>>15
JavaScript is based on Scheme but it's also based on C. They're starting to teach JavaScript and CS grads will think it's good because that's what they learned. They will think it's normal for their text editor to be written in JavaScript and have its own copy of Chromium.

http://sircmpwn.github.io/2016/11/24/Electron-considered-harmful.html

When you choose Electron you get:
An entire copy of Chromium you’ll be shipping with your app
An interface that looks and feels nothing like the rest of the user’s OS
One of the slowest, least memory efficient, and most inelegant GUI application platforms out there (remember, we tolerate frontend web development because we have no choice, not because it is by any means good)

https://transitiontech.ca/random/RIIR

>>17
Rewrite it in asm.js instead.

>>16

They're starting to teach JavaScript and CS grads will think it's good because that's what they learned. They will think it's normal for their text editor to be written in JavaScript and have its own copy of Chromium.

You seriously live in some bubble if you think any idiot will buy this crap.

First of all, just because someone learns a high level language as a first language, doesn't mean they will think it's the best language ever; it's just to teach programming concepts, or lack of. Did everyone who learn BASIC continue to program in it for the decades after?

Second, I know you think your average code monkey isn't very bright, but to say they'd think using a web browser masquerading as a text editor--is normal just because they learned javascript, is pretty absurd and cynical.

You claim that universities are responsible for all this nonsense you dislike, but you have to remember that the internet and its communities also influence these people to go with whatever programming language that is hip. I don't know what university teaches Rust or node.js in CS, yet it seems to be popular.

>>19

You seriously live in some bubble if you think any idiot will buy this crap.

I was living in a bubble when I thought they wouldn't! Idiots are literally buying this crap. They are paying money to get these apps from the App Store. Companies are buying it too. Microsoft Visual Studio Code is written in Electron. Microsoft is promoting this by building software with it.

http://mylifeforthecode.com/getting-started-with-electron-in-visual-studio-code/

VS Code is built on Electron, formerly Atom-shell, a cross-platform Chromium-based shell for building desktop apps with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. It was created by the people over at GitHub for use with their Atom editor, and is now the foundation for a slew of cross-platform desktop applications.

First of all, just because someone learns a high level language as a first language, doesn't mean they will think it's the best language ever; it's just to teach programming concepts, or lack of. Did everyone who learn BASIC continue to program in it for the decades after?

BASIC teaches you to write code yourself and it's fun and easy. It doesn't have a lot of concepts but everything there makes sense.

JavaScript is not designed for beginners or experts, it's designed for ``hackers''. JavaScript teaches you that you should use npm and Github to download crap other people wrote. But why can't anyone write good code in JavaScript? ``Hackers'' don't care about how well their programs work (speed, memory usage, or reliability) or what their code looks like, they just want to make something in as little development time as possible, and if that means using Chromium and millions of lines of libraries, they will do that. These libraries are all junk because they're made by the same kind of people that use them. This whole idea came from C and UNIX, which introduced ``Worse is Better'' and JavaScript is definitely an example of it.

http://www.haneycodes.net/npm-left-pad-have-we-forgotten-how-to-program/
https://github.com/stevemao/left-pad

Second, I know you think your average code monkey isn't very bright, but to say they'd think using a web browser masquerading as a text editor--is normal just because they learned javascript, is pretty absurd and cynical.

I wish it was absurd and cynical. Once this starts being used in universities, they will think it's normal.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14245183

Did you know that Chromium contains 25.3 million lines of code? [1] Each Electron app is bundling a separate copy of that enormous codebase in binary form. It's a terrible waste of memory.

Isn't that size arbitrary? Downloading and storing a 100mb program takes the same (or less) fraction of your available resources today as downloading and storing a 1mb program in 1995.

You claim that universities are responsible for all this nonsense you dislike, but you have to remember that the internet and its communities also influence these people to go with whatever programming language that is hip.

They both are and that's the root of the problem. They teach ``hacking'', ``poking'', and ``tweaking'' not programming. Universities should be trying to make good programming hip. We should think Electron and JavaScript are for uneducated idiots.

http://www.posteriorscience.net/?p=206

Sussman said that in the 80s and 90s, engineers built complex systems by combining simple and well-understood parts. The goal of SICP was to provide the abstraction language for reasoning about such systems.
Today, this is no longer the case. Sussman pointed out that engineers now routinely write code for complicated hardware that they don’t fully understand (and often can’t understand because of trade secrecy.) The same is true at the software level, since programming environments consist of gigantic libraries with enormous functionality. According to Sussman, his students spend most of their time reading manuals for these libraries to figure out how to stitch them together to get a job done. He said that programming today is “More like science. You grab this piece of library and you poke at it. You write programs that poke it and see what it does. And you say, ‘Can I tweak it to do the thing I want?'”. The “analysis-by-synthesis” view of SICP — where you build a larger system out of smaller, simple parts — became irrelevant. Nowadays, we do programming by poking.

Did everyone who learn BASIC continue to program in it for the decades after?

BASIC never had the industry traction that Javascript has right now. Lots of people learned C# and Java in university, and a lot of them are probably still only writing C# and Java one or two decades after.

Second, I know you think your average code monkey isn't very bright, but to say they'd think using a web browser masquerading as a text editor--is normal just because they learned javascript, is pretty absurd and cynical.

They don't think it's because of Javascript; they think it's because everybody has at least 16GB of RAM and a quad-core processor's worth of processing power to waste running those nowadays, so it's perfectly acceptable to run several browser rendering engines for each ``app'' you want to keep open.
And those who don't still think it's fine, because it's ``cross-platform'' and using GUI toolkits is too hard.

>>21
Well, BASIC certainly was the major language when Apple first started pushing into the K-12 educational market.

>>21

they think it's because everybody has at least 16GB of RAM and a quad-core processor's worth of processing power to waste running those nowadays,

They don't really write applications that need to be run 24/7 though

>>20
wait, you're seriously butthurt about the fact that people download libraries instead of writing everything from scratch? you're right anon, everyone should rewrite the same string manipulation functions, date/time utilities, filesystem wrappers, unicode tools and tcp/ip stacks every time they want to do anything

>>23
Slack is one of the most used Electron applications, and it's also one of the worst offenders. The power consumption increases depending on how many channels you're idling on.

>>25
just like a web browser

>>20

JavaScript teaches you that you should use npm and Github to download crap other people wrote.

You're talking about node.js in your post there.
From what I know, most universities that do teach javascript, just teach the web variant. Even stanford (who dropped java in favor of teaching javascript in their intro CS course) teach the web one and not node.js

>>24

the fact that people download libraries instead of writing everything from scratch?

No, high-quality libraries are great. 100 MB frameworks and browsers bundled with every program are not. They mean there's something wrong with the tools you are using. If you need 1000 times more disk space and RAM to do the same things more slowly with more code, they are not the right tools. You can't learn computer science with anything this badly designed. All you learn is the specifics of bad languages and libraries. They always say ``industry'' is worse but they are helping everyone ``transition'' to JavaScript crap. They are making it worse.

string manipulation functions, date/time utilities, filesystem wrappers, unicode tools and tcp/ip stacks

String manipulation is the only thing on that list that is a computer science fundamental. All of those things are already part of the operating system. You're building an ``inner platform'' over the operating system. Node, Electron, and Docker are ``inner platforms'' too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner-platform_effect

>>28

All of those things are already part of the operating system.

Where does the software abstraction come into place here?

>>29
I don't know what ``the software abstraction'' means, but there are two different issues here. One is ``hackers'' creating crap like node.js and using it everywhere and the other one is academic liars saying it's good or too hard to change (neither are true).

>>29
what?

>>30
But Nodejs is good for scalable event-driven enterprise asynchronous applications... ... ...
What are you recommending?

• Academia
• Full of liars

Of course it is. Academia is far too pozzed nowadays for one to learn anything of value. They're just expensive indoctrination centers, nothing more.

>>28
there's a big problem with relying on the OS: it ties your software to it. if I do disk access through Linux syscalls, it will not work on Windows. if I do it through a filesystem library, it's more or less guaranteed that at least the mainstream OSes will be supported. and because OS-agnostic (from the programmer's point of view, obviously at some point the OS will almost always be involved) filesystem operations (and date manipiulation, and networking, and dozens of other things) are needed for many different things, people write libraries to handle them so they can focus on task at hand instead of reinventing the wheel every time they want to drive a car or creating the universe every time they want apple pie