Making your game general

ITT we discuss how to collaboratively design our games.

Lets summarize why 3D indie games can be expensive:
1.Real voice actors: you can use voice synth or TTS.
2.Real 3D modeling: just use free assets.
3.Music: Don't use music. Its superfluous to immersion.
4.Cinematics: Don't use cinematics. Players just skip that bullshit. If you must just script something in game.
Thats it. Games can be cheap if you don't follow design paradigms of AAA titles. Just use a free 3D engine.

People have this confusion that "Footsteps sounds" are on the same level as visual eyecandy like "blended shadows".
Footstep sounds indicate movement in gameplay and crucial for situations when you have limited or no infomation about enemies around.

Footstep sounds are in the general class of "Movement indicator sound" that signal that X is moving(with positional audio and good headphones you can pinpoint where X is moving). Human brain treats sound signals in 3D, this creates immersion that places us on the map as the character.

To recap this thread:

Make an action RPG using a cookie cutter game engine and cookie cutter game mechanics. Use default assets from the Unity or Unreal store that are exactly the same as assets used in other zero budget indie games that nobody plays. No music, story, art, cut scenes, or writing either. Add good footstep sound effects. And voila! A masterpiece. 10/10 game of the year material. I'm sure all 3 people who play it will enjoy it. This, ladies and gentlemen, is how a true genius makes a game. Also, Lisp is the best programming language and you shouldn't use smartphones or social media.

/prog/ is a fountain of wisdom. You should definitely listen to the advice posted here.

>>124
Basically this, but drop that Lisp bullshit and shilling on social media is crucial to promoting the game.
Also, stealing other games assets and slightly modifying them works too, just make them look sufficiently different, some color changes and few tweaks.
>No music, story, art, cut scenes, or writing either.
Yep. Thats superfluous "art game" trash, 100% wasted effort for zero replay-ability. You should work on combat loop and game mechanics, making it friendly to use for complete noobs. If you abide by some RPG cliches that items need to be repaired/identified/recharged and that having talk to NPCs is essential your game belongs in the 20th century.
Everything thats non-essential to combat and character development can be added as cosmetic DLC:
1.Want a cool quest? Neckbeard Quest DLC
2.Want some lore? Buy Lore pack DLC
3.Want some music? Just download "official soundtrack".
4.Want story? Buy a story DLC.
Basic game doesn't need that, and those who want single-player RPG experience will buy the DLC.

what can change the nature of a man?

All RPGs are crippled by Dungeons & Dragons Paradigms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgoonTyjKoc

>>127
don't care, virgin

The whole concept of 10+ people having to talk to one NPC is kinda unrealistic and breaks immersion. If NPCs are that important they should be part of players interface(like an auction tab). RGPs that add lore-only NPCs can be understood, but making NPCs a crucial part of the game is unnecessary realism: all NPC trade/upgrade/quests can be accomplished with a UI(menu system/tab space).

MMOs suck ass, end of story.

>>130
The problem is greedy publishers wanting to commercialize all aspects of the game. The genre itself isn't that bad.

>>131
You make it sound as if the two are somehow independent.

The MMO genre only makes sense in games like Minecraft, Terraria, Rust, etc where you can build stuff.

>>133
If you game server doesn't have a fixed player limits its a MMO.

You don't need to design your own art:
Just grab whatever photos/videos visually look like the game needs and convert it to 3D. Same thing with sound effects, just search for youtube with the effects.
It save lots of work.
https://www.instructables.com/id/Turn-any-Video-into-a-3D-Model/

So ITT people say you don't need to make a game engine, don't need to make interesting gameplay, don't need music, don't need cut scenes, don't need good writing, don't need dialogue options, don't need to make your own 3D assets, and don't need art.

By the sounds of it, you don't really want to make your own game. You just want to put things together that other people made. But at that point, is it even really yours? Sure, it's faster than doing things yourself. But you lose autonomy over your project. You can no longer call it yours if you just glue together pre-made stuff that you had no part in creating.

Some of my personal approach to game development really is reinventing the wheel. But I can say I made it. I'm not just using someone else's game engine, or someone else's music, or someone else's art. I am making it myself. That's the point.

You could go to a great restaurant to get nice food. Or you could cook in your kitchen and probably make something slightly worse. But the difference is that you made it.

>>136
Making a game is extremely complicated. It's more than just codemonkeying. It's like saying, "Make a movie yourself, and you have to make your own cinematic 8K cameras."

>>138
I know it's complicated. I'm fucking making my own game from scratch right now. You're on a programming board, do you really think nobody else knows how to program here? I specifically said to limit the scope of the game to make it easier. That's why I'm making a 2D game. Much easier than 3D, especially if you want to actually make it yourself instead of just using assets someone else made.

>>136

don't need to make interesting gamepla

99% effort should be in gameplay mechanics(combat), the rest in character development, and 0.001% on importing assets.

By the sounds of it, you don't really want to make your own game.

Its simple equation, if you designed everything yourself and made all assests by hand it will take 4-10 years and the result will be shit compared to my approach of reusing everything that can be reused. "The Chad hacker writing 3 games per month" vs "Virgin Programmer building a 10 year old pyramid by himself".

>>140
If you write 3 games in a month, how good can they possibly be?
Besides, importing assets into a game engine won't impress anyone.
IF you make something from scratch, you can put it on a resume or at least on GitHub.

The "Custom unique engine" trap:
A typical programmer thinks he has to design his own engine that will be fast, non-bloated and capable of unique gameplay mechanics. It will actually take most of time to debug the engine instead of game it supposed to run.
By using a mainstream 3D engine, you get top-level graphics, best performance from years of optimization, and 99% of possible gameplay mechanics. All of that for free.
And you can start prototyping shit right away, not building everything from scratch.

The "Original Assets make my game unique" delusion: Most players will not care about assets unless they're really ugly(hand-made assets) or detract from immersion. Stealing/Importing/Converting already existing assets is leaving more time to actual coding.

The "Dialogues and Quests are important" idiocy: Most players will not want to play through quests/dialogue more than once, so its essentially a gameplay roadblock that could be minimized at no cost.


The "My game needs cutscenes" fallacy: your game is about the gameplay, not the story. Write a film if you care about cutscenes and ship it as bonus content for the game.
After first playthrough most players skip cutscenes.

The "music adds atmosphere" notion: Its adds bloat. Players will get tired of it and turn it off. Player have their own music players and favorite artists.

>>141
You're not going to be recruiting by a game studio because they saw your autistic 2D rpg.
You don't need that. Just sell your game on mobile app stores.

>>143
Not for a game studio. Being a game developer for anything other than a hobby or for a resume-padding project is silly. I'm into other areas of software development that have nothing to do with game dev and I'd hate to do it professionally.

>>142

A typical programmer thinks he has to design his own engine that will be fast, non-bloated and capable of unique gameplay mechanics.

It's 2D, it doesn't need to be fast or non-bloated. But it's definitely easier to come up with unique gameplay that way. I can put any 2D objects on the screen in any way I want, not being limited by some predefined subroutines of a preexisting game engine. I'm using a pseudo-sprite system and collision detection, but I can also just add whatever the fuck I want, if I want to do weird shit. It opens up the possibility to make weird and unusual gameplay instead of everything being a tried and true trope that you've already seen in countless games.

>It will actually take most of time to debug the engine
Wrong. My game engine is simple enough. Hell, it seems easier than learning all the features of a super complicated game engine.

I am making a 2D game and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

Imagine getting this upset about someone enjoying making something.

The Virgin "Game Developer":
Spends most of time debugging his engine and managing assets.
Gameplay is incredibly primitive, because engine doesn't scale and full of bugs.
Assets are ugly enough to discourage retrogamers
Open source game gets mention in 3rd rate gameblog once in 3 years.
Insists on not stealing art, tries to draw something in blender for weeks. Allergic to reusing others art, even if open source.
Just good enough for drawing 2D pixel art, so most games are boring 2D rpgs that look like 90's console abortions.
Insists that all his games must be supported at all costs and maintained for eternity.
Plays the games just to test for bugs and difficulty levels.
Thinks players should not question his design, his word is final and absolute.

The Chad "Game Producer":
Uses ready-made engines, assets and sounds.
Writes new games every week.
Always closed-source. Why not?
Has actual profit from gamedev, holds key spots in app stores
Reinvents the genre by stroke of mouse
Doesn't bother with stuff outside of game mechanics.
Games are actually fun to play, don't require tinkering and deciding.
Actually enjoys playing his games as stress relief.
Adds dlc to successful games, doesn't bother with failed games.
Listens to players and removes gameplay roadblocks.
Games are mentioned on mobile review sites, PC gamers are downloading android emulators just to experience them.

>>145

Imagine getting this upset about someone enjoying making something.

Its like looking at a person who spent 40 years collecting stamps manually, when you just printed "World Stamp Collection in 50 pages" on your printer for free and its bigger. I don't think its wrong to design engines or collecting stamps, it just bother me that people waste their lives on such unimportant stuff that doesn't have any benefit.
Writing a custom-made engine for every game, and writing open-source games for resume-padding is looking like that 40 year stamp collecting spree.

>>145
Just FYI there are free 2D game engines that are versatile enough to implement everything you think of.
https://godotengine.org/

>>147

unimportant stuff

I'm using it to get more experience with programming and to add a project to my resume. It's actually very useful to me. You're forgetting that not every person on this board is an old geezer with a zillion years of experience already.

>>149
Uh, gamedev and software development have way different standards and goals, gamedev is a closed system centered on game engines - software development is a open set of interfaces and protocols. If you want to improve your skills, try implementing utilities and medium-size software tools first.
Create a few libraries, design an API/protocol, make a language concept or a compiler for a DSL you invented for specific goals. There is much more space to experiment outside of game development and skills learned would be more relevant in the future. Gamedev isn't that great for practicing you "general programming" skills, unless you intend to become a professional in this field.
The most benefit for practicing gamedev i can see: game engine optimizations and feeling how the cost of code paths scales with players/viewers, libraries written for the game engine and understanding of graphics pipeline. Most of the stuff you do as content/script within the game engine will not be a transferable skill.

>>150

closed system centered on game engines

Huh? I'm writing my own game engine, not using some closed source game engine someone else made.

software development is a open set of interfaces and protocols

What's that supposed to mean? Are you saying I shouldn't make a project because software development is more general?

Dude, you are just way too dismissive about people actually programming. Why are you even on a programming board if you're just going to tell people to stop programming?

Gamedev isn't that great for practicing you "general programming" skills

Why not? What I'm doing demonstrate knowledge of GUI stuff, debugging, making a decent-sized project, file IO, exception handling, OOP, etc. Sure, it's not the most amazing project ever. But it's a start. You don't start off by writing really advanced shit.

content/script within the game engine

But I'm making the game engine myself, and that's a bulk of the work for it. I'm not spending a ton of time on the stuff after that.

The only way to get better at programming is to program more. I am doing this as a project to program more.

Making a game doesn't have to be solely for the sake of making a game. It can be a fun learning process. When I work on projects, sometimes I incorporate new things into it. When I made a website not too long ago, I learned a new frontend framework I'd never used before. So by making the site, I was also learning at the same time. Are you telling me you've never done something like that before?

>> closed system centered on game engines

Huh? I'm writing my own game engine, not using some closed source game engine someone else made.

Gamedev revolves around creating stuff within a game engine or modifying the game engine, thus development proceeds within the closed system.

What's that supposed to mean? Are you saying I shouldn't make a project because software development is more general?

The scope of software development in a game project is limited to game engine or its libraries functionality required for the game and nothing else(except maybe multiplayer servers, but it doesn't sound like your 2d hobby project will reach that stage).

Why not? What I'm doing demonstrate knowledge of GUI stuff, debugging, making a decent-sized project, file IO, exception handling, OOP, etc. Sure, it's not the most amazing project ever. But it's a start. You don't start off by writing really advanced shit.

Games are actually very advanced shit as a concept, they're a complex closed system, their own little world. Like a modern browser provides a closed set of interfaces, a modern game engine is providing a virtual world interface - a virtual machine for game scripts/maps/media. 2D hobby projects will be a limited set of the above and your ideas of growing skills inside this closed system will be limited by demands of game engine(not much for a simple engine).

But I'm making the game engine myself, and that's a bulk of the work for it. I'm not spending a ton of time on the stuff after that.

See? you are making mostly the engine and all you will program will revolve around the engine, its limitations and interfaces within it. Its mostly throwaway code that will never be reused.

The only way to get better at programming is to program more. I am doing this as a project to program more.

There are programmers who "program more of the same" and there are programmers who "program different things", guess which one gains a better set of skills?
If you spend all time around one project, your skills will adapt to that. Dedicating your time to "one true game engine" will not expand your horizons or gain you new skills, it will be slow refinement of what you need.

>>152
you seem hellbent on discouraging people from programming, guy

>>140

"The Chad hacker writing 3 games per month" vs "Virgin Programmer building a 10 year old pyramid by himself".

👏👏

it's over, pack your bags. shut /prog/ down. this line should be written at the top of /prog/. The Final Solution to the /prog/ Question.

in one sentence >>140 has singlehandedly demolished all the lisperatis, Sadkovs, and Cudders on this shit board.

So ITT people say you don't need to make a game engine,

You're making a game, not a game engine

don't need to make interesting gameplay,

Of course you need interesting gameplay, thats the point of a game.

don't need music,

Game environment should provide only sounds effects. Music is optional bonus content(could be used for credits screen).

don't need cut scenes,

Its a game not a moive.Players will skip it anyway.

don't need good writing,

Its a game not a book. Players will skip it anyway.

don't need dialogue options,

Gameplay is more important that autistic roleplay content.
Players will skip it anyway.

don't need to make your own 3D assets, and don't need art.

You're not an artist, you're a programmer. Wasting effort for creating art will reduce your programming time.

By the sounds of it, you don't really want to make your own game.

Actually you make games much faster this way.

You just want to put things together that other people made.

Thats called being pragmatic and reusing good stuff.

But at that point, is it even really yours?

Of course it is. The combination of atoms in your body is yourself.

Sure, it's faster than doing things yourself.

Of course it is.

But you lose autonomy over your project.

You win time and productivity. Autonomy isn't affected: in fact you can choose what to include and how to integrate stuff without being forced to adapt the game to your content(that you painstakingly created and must use to avoid wasting effort).

You can no longer call it yours if you just glue together pre-made stuff that you had no part in creating.

Any program that uses libraries extensively and prefers not to reinvent its own wheels, is by this definition "something glued together". By this logic you must stop using your standard libraries and OS and write your own "TempleOS" with its own compiler, just to stick it to the man.

Ok Mr 15 games per month, post something you've made. You certainly talk a lot, but can you back it up?

>>156
Whats the point advertising games in a board with 10 users, the only outcome will be them reporting games for asset theft or giving negative review out of spite?

>>157
So you can't back up what you've said. You're all talk and no substance. In other words, you're a liar. A troll.

>>158
Sure thing. Continue wasting your life on handmade pyramids.

I'll explain why i call such "self-made" projects a pyramid, so it won't sound esoteric ITT.
A pyramid consists of layers stacked on each other, with large layers below smaller layers(which depend on lower).
When you design a non-reusable game engine, its a huge base layer. You put then scripts and AI layers on top. And then add content layer above that.
Each layer progressively minimizes effort to modify the game, as dynamic scripts and high-level content is more flexible.
However by build the lower levels of the pyramid yourself, you have to do substantially more work, as opposed to build on top of half-made pyramid(free 3D engine+free assets).
By skipping building every lower layer in the pyramid, except the top layer, you produce games much faster and concentrating on stuff that truly matters.