Making your game general

ITT we discuss how to collaboratively design our games.

>>79
*holds up spork*

>>77
realism is for anuses

>>82
Its immersion breaking to have music on repeat, unless its randomly generated. Instead the sounds of footsteps, weapons, leaves in the wind, animals ,etc create a sense of immersion.
Not adding a 30m long instrumental track. Very few games have non-annoying music that you can listen for weeks.

>>83
anus, immersion isn't always the goal of the game

>>83
realism is not synonymous with immersion

you can get immersed in an unrealistic game world

it's more about the gameplay and story, not dumb shit like footsteps

>>85,84
Link to one youtube video for a 2D game with immersive gameplay or story. Challenge: Story must not be told in external cinematics disconnected from the game.

>>86
Elona

>>86
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9gOQxHX83E

Immersion isn't always about realism or story. Immersion can also be about fun and gameplay. You are immersed in the mechanics of the game and what you're supposed to be doing. Elona has bad graphics and animations and very minimal and repetitive sound effects. But it is still immersive and engrossing because of the depth of the gameplay. There is so much to do and your imagination fills in the gaps. Edited on 17/08/2018 05:34.

Immserion isn't always about realism or story. Immersion can also be about fun and gameplay. You are immersed in the mechanics of the game and what you're supposed to be doing. Elona has bad graphics and animations and very minimal and repetitive sound effects. But it is still immersive and engrossing because of the depth of the gameplay. There is so much to do and your imagination fills in the gaps.
Immersion isn't always about realism or story. Immersion can also be about fun and gameplay. You are immersed in the mechanics of the game and what you're supposed to be doing. Elona has bad graphics and animations and very minimal and repetitive sound effects. But it is still immersive and engrossing because of the depth of the gameplay. There is so much to do and your imagination fills in the gaps.

>>88
This is some kind of RPG maker trash. Only 4chan autists with no social contact for years can see simple branching text dialogues as immersive and "deep". Modern games have voice dialogue with real 3D personas.

Maybe these Elona/Nethack autists never played a good MMORPG so they think their 2D shit is pinnacle of RPG design & immersion?

>>90
It's not RPG Maker.

>>91
MMOs are for neckbeards

>>92
Well, it looks like its one of these indie games just with lots more dialog options. Its as immersive as average visual novel.
>>93
Actually lots of middle-aged women and children play MMO's now. Neckbeards are just a tiny(but vocal) minority.
Maybe you're thinking of early 2000's MMOs?

I have to admit there is decline in MMOs, and they're more casual now. But they're still far more immersive than most single-player 2D crap. If you want real depth play 3D rpgs like Witcher/Skyrim for immersion.

Immersion = Realism + Social Interaction + Variety + Replayability
Realism: Game must provide a coherent, realistic looking world that looks dynamic. 2.5D isometric can pass with good quality sprites, but quality 3D is the modern minimum.
Social Interaction: Either NPCs or other players must provide a sense of community, belonging to a group/faction.
Variety: the game must provide novel content, unique mechanics/items/monster AI.
Replayability: tons of character build options(if the game forces you into one cookie cutter build, its trash), randomness(in maps/items/monsters), unpredictability and novelty of each game session.

>>94

Well, it looks like its one of these indie games just with lots more dialog options. Its as immersive as average visual novel.

No fun allowed! Have fun with your ``immersive'' footstep sound effects while ignoring real ways to make a gun fun and engrossing.

Actually lots of middle-aged women and children play MMO's now

And?

Maybe you're thinking of early 2000's MMOs?

No. On the whole, the MMO genre is dying. People play mobas and shit now.
>>95

they're more casual now.

They never should have been so grindy in the first place. That was a huge flaw in their design. The devs would spend like 5 hours making content that takes the player 20 hours to complete. Lazy and shitty game design based on the flawed business model of trying to keep the player playing for as long as possible, despite them working on a limited time frame and budget. So, by nature, MMOs had to be super slow-paced.

far more immersive than most single-player 2D crap

Immersive? Maybe. Enjoyable? Hell no. Single player games don't have ongoing upkeep costs, so they don't need to artificially increase the time it takes to complete content. You can make a really fun single player RPG that only has 10 hours of content, and overall it will leave the player feeling happier than an MMO that requires thousands of hours and leaves the player feeling jaded and unhappy because it cucks the players by making everything take forever.

Witcher/Skyrim

Better graphics, but worse story and gameplay.
2D RPGs are great in the sense that they are technically pretty simple to make, meaning hobbyists who enjoy games can make them on their own. They can make games for fun rather than just a cash grab. They also spend more time on game mechanics, story, and things like that instead of just graphics. I think Morrowind is a better example of a 3D RPG.

Elona has a lot of cool shit that many other RPGs don't have. You can steal anything. You can kill pretty much anyone, though there are penalties for doing so. You can be a street performer who plays an instrument for money. You can have houses. You can make money by opening a museum and attracting visitors with your cool items in it. You can set up shelters anywhere for when the weather is bad. You can get strange diseases. You can mutate. You can make enemies drunk by giving them alcohol. You can detonate nukes. You can talk to NPCs. You can do quests. You can go to dungeons. You can have a follower. You can fuck hookers. You can mutate and gain extra body parts. You can worship a god. You can kill god. You can modify weapons and armor. You can get married. You can genetically alter things. You can give NPCs poisoned or rotten food. You can download and install add-ons to the game. You can use your own graphics. You can cast tons of different kinds of spells. You can steal your opponent's weapon. You can see when other players die, even though it's not multiplayer. You can visit other players' houses, even though you can't play with them. You can ignore combat and do trade goods between different regions. You can have kids. You can have heirlooms for your descendants. You can play as your kid (kind of like NewGame+).

Other RPGs are mostly just combat and dialogue and stupid crafting systems. Edited on 17/08/2018 07:06.

Body is too long to be processed.

Original Body:
>>94
>Well, it looks like its one of these indie games just with lots more dialog options. Its as immersive as average visual novel.
No fun allowed! Have fun with your ``immersive'' footstep sound effects while ignoring real ways to make a gun fun and engrossing.
>Actually lots of middle-aged women and children play MMO's now
And?
>Maybe you're thinking of early 2000's MMOs? 
No. On the whole, the MMO genre is dying. People play mobas and shit now.
>>95
>they're more casual now.
They never should have been so grindy in the first place. That was a huge flaw in their design. The devs would spend like 5 hours making content that takes the player 20 hours to complete. Lazy and shitty game design based on the flawed business model of trying to keep the player playing for as long as possible, despite them working on a limited time frame and budget. So, by nature, MMOs had to be super slow-paced. 
>far more immersive than most single-player 2D crap
Immersive? Maybe. Enjoyable? Hell no. Single player games don't have ongoing upkeep costs, so they don't need to artificially increase the time it takes to complete content. You can make a really fun single player RPG that only has 10 hours of content, and overall it will leave the player feeling happier than an MMO that requires thousands of hours and leaves the player feeling jaded and unhappy because it cucks the players by making everything take forever.
>Witcher/Skyrim
Better graphics, but worse story and gameplay.
2D RPGs are great in the sense that they are technically pretty simple to make, meaning hobbyists who enjoy games can make them on their own. They can make games for fun rather than just a cash grab. They also spend more time on game mechanics, story, and things like that instead of just graphics. I think Morrowind is a better example of a 3D RPG.

Elona has a lot of cool shit that many other RPGs don't have. You can steal anything. You can kill pretty much anyone, though there are penalties for doing so. You can be a street performer who plays an instrument for money. You can have houses. You can make money by opening a museum and attracting visitors with your cool items in it. You can set up shelters anywhere for when the weather is bad. You can get strange diseases. You can mutate. You can make enemies drunk by giving them alcohol. You can detonate nukes. You can talk to NPCs. You can do quests. You can go to dungeons. You can have a follower. You can fuck hookers. You can mutate and gain extra body parts. You can worship a god. You can kill god. You can modify weapons and armor. You can get married. You can genetically alter things. You can give NPCs poisoned or rotten food. You can download and install add-ons to the game. You can use your own graphics. You can cast tons of different kinds of spells. You can steal your opponent's weapon. You can see when other players die, even though it's not multiplayer. You can visit other players' houses, even though you can't play with them. You can ignore combat and do trade goods between different regions. You can have kids. You can have heirlooms for your descendants. You can play as your kid (kind of like NewGame+).

Other RPGs are mostly just combat and dialogue and stupid crafting systems.

Elona has a lot of cool shit that many other RPGs don't have.

You can steal anything.

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Thieving
http://www.uoguide.com/Stealing
http://ragnarok.wikia.com/wiki/Steal
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/922154-neverwinter-nights-2/faqs/46019
Modern MMOs don't have player stealing from other players, because its an easily abused mechanic. Some MMOs have limited thief abilities targeted to monsters/NPCs.

>You can kill pretty much anyone, though there are penalties for doing so.
Killing NPCs in a MMO is bad design, but single-player RPGs allow it often(grimdark)

>You can be a street performer who plays an instrument for money.
That is within in-game rules, you can play as a (female) performer dancing in a MMO and have real players donate stuff/currency to you.

You can have houses.

Many MMOs have housing. Second Life is essentially the Housing Online MMO, that is built around land ownership/rent/building your own little world(you can build a mini-MMO inside Second Life).

>You can make money by opening a museum and attracting visitors with your cool items in it.
MMOs have trade shops, where you can open something like a stand with items sold by NPCs. Also, Second Life has museums and shops where real players pay money to buy virtual stuff(though as of now many migrated to selling through website interface that doesn't require owning land).

>You can set up shelters anywhere for when the weather is bad.
MMOs have an equivalent system of protection spells and town portals.

>You can get strange diseases. You can mutate.
Curses and transmogrify spells are quite rare in MMOs, but single-player 3D rpgs have plenty of that.

You can make enemies drunk by giving them alcohol.

Single-player RPGs probably have this, but its scripted.

You can detonate nukes.

Fallout? How this meshes with medieval fantasy?

>You can talk to NPCs. You can do quests. You can go to dungeons. You can have a follower.
Typical MMO stuff.

You can fuck hookers.

Erotic Roleplay in Roleplay servers and specific sims in Second Life are far more immersive and occur with real people.

You can mutate and gain extra body parts.

Transformation spells. You can transform in verious animals in MMOs.

You can worship a god.

Typical RPG stuff.

You can kill god.

End-bosses that have religious nature can be called gods.

You can modify weapons and armor.

Typical MMO stuff.

You can get married.

This is more common in asian MMOs.

You can genetically alter things.

Depends on things, this is possible to cast spells to improve weapons/armor/consumables.

You can give NPCs poisoned or rotten food.

Only in scripted single-player RPGs.

You can download and install add-ons to the game.

WoW alone has hundreds of addons.

You can use your own graphics.

Graphics mods for MMOs and RPGs are plenty(esp. Nude Mods)

You can cast tons of different kinds of spells.

Typicall MMO stuff.

You can steal your opponent's weapon.

Thats called open looting, and PVP open looting exist in some hardcore MMOs and RPGs.

You can see when other players die, even though it's not multiplayer.

Typical mmo stuff

You can visit other players' houses, even though you can't play with them.

You can visit your MMO friends house AND play with them.

You can ignore combat and do trade goods between different regions.

You can live as trader in MMOs if you exploit auction/trade system.

You can have kids.

The closest thing is that you have pets in MMOs, some of which are human-like.

You can have heirlooms for your descendants.

You can have mercenaries and pets equipped in MMOs.

You can play as your kid (kind of like NewGame+).

There are ascendance mechanics in some MMOs, where you restart at level 1 with some perks from previous gameplay.

Actually curses/transmogrify exists, they're just temporary debuffs vs players/monsters.

>>98

Runescape

Runescape thieving is just clicking on something over and over again. You can't even steal anything good. It's also very grindy. OSRS is grindy as hell, and RS3 is a dead game that is also super pay2win.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GECI3wKYOpo&t=5m45s
UO is a dead game. That's another problem with MMOs: if nobody else plays it, it makes it worse if you want to play it. Single player games are still good even if nobody else plays them.
Ragnarok is another dead game.
Neverwinter Nights 2 was good.

Killing NPCs in a MMO is bad design

Elona is not an MMO, it's single player. I was talking about single player games. I said MMOs are bad. You are getting confused.

you can play as a (female) performer dancing in a MMO and have real players donate stuff/currency to you.

Not the same thing. Doing a /dance emote is not the same as the single player thing I was talking about, which nets you XP and money. But games like Mabinogi or LOTRO had a cool instrument mechanic. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHXYiI_eBPU

Second Life is essentially the Housing Online MMO

You really don't want to mention SL as a good example of anything. It's just trolls trolling trolls and middle-aged weirdos pretending their life doesn't suck. Lots of weird shit. I'd suggest avoiding that game. Also, doesn't housing in that game cost real money? Elona is free and doesn't have any monthly fees. You can have a house for no money. And even for games that you have to buy, it's nice when it doesn't have microtransactions/DLC/in-app purchases. SL stuff costs extra money, even if SL itself is supposedly free.

Single-player RPGs probably have this, but its scripted.

It's not scripted. Elona has this feature. You can give alcoholic items to NPCs. Being drunk or sick is like a status debuff of sorts. You seem to be confused. I was talking about single-player stuff and you are acting like I said MMOs. I am saying single player is better in many ways in the sense that you can focus on having more interesting game mechanics. If you had a lot of interesting game mechanics in an online game, people would abuse them for griefing/trolling. The moderation issue of online play limits what kinds of gameplay they can have.

Erotic Roleplay in Roleplay servers

You are misinterpreting this. It's comedic/silly in Elona, not something serious. Actual ERPing is pathetic. Only obese neckbeards do it.

This is more common in asian MMOs.

Asian MMOs are usually free to play but pay to win.

Only in scripted single-player RPGs.

It's not scripted. You keep saying that even though it's wrong. Why do you think gameplay has to be so linear? You give an NPC food, and they eat it, as they would normally when there is a quest to give them food, or just if your charisma and relationship is high enough that they will accept things from you. In Elona, you can literally give food to an NPC and they might eat it. If you give them rotten or poisoned food, they can die. Of course, if they die because of you, you will lose karma and guards might come after you.

WoW alone has hundreds of addons.

There are interface and bot add-ons, not gameplay add-ons/mods.

But you are focusing too much on little details and not enough on the main point of my post. What I am saying is that, by keeping a game single player and 2D, you are spending less time on graphics and engine work (and community management too), and you are able to spend more time concentrating on gameplay. Gameplay helps for immersion, which is what you and other posters were arguing about.

Immersion and fun are not based on useless things like footstep sound effects. Immersion comes from depth of gameplay.

Time is a zero sum game. There are only 24 hours in a day. The more time you spend on one aspect of the game, the less time you have for other aspects.

Other RPGs are mostly just combat and dialogue and stupid crafting systems.

Action-RPG system, you can blame Diablo for that. Its a tradeoff vs more immersive/social systems as players instead use clans/party system to create their own social interactions instead of scripted options.
The problem isn't the "lack of non-combat/item-modification content", is that player feel compelled to get best equipment and rush through the game content as fast as possible.
There is plenty of side-quests, social inter-player interactions, immersive environment and voice acting, if you don't skip it. However 99% of player don't give a rats ass about quests/voices/graphics/immersive content and just want their stats/items to be the best. So logically game designers started to cut non-essential/non-combat-related content to reduce development costs(voice acting/3d modeling/environment design/etc) in the assumption that players will "roleplay whatever they like", but its like telling FPS players to enjoy the scenery.

What's the point in trying to talk with you? All you do is ignore points. You're not open to listening to anyone that doesn't back up your preexisting notions.

Clearly, a grindy MMO with IMMERSIVE FOOTSTEP SOUNDS (lol) is infinitely better than a single player game that has interesting game mechanics like Elona. Is that what you want me to say?

by keeping a game single player and 2D, you are spending less time on graphics and engine work

Nope, by taking a FPS engine(Unreal 4) and adding some RPG elements + minimal maps you can have a decent Action-RPG in a month. Without non-combat content is actually far easier to design a RPG around the FPS concept.

Besides, if you make a game that is like other games that already exist, why would anyone play it? You have to do something interesting and different. The only people who can get away with having a generic game are AAA publishers, because they concentrate on polish rather than coming up with unique and interesting gameplay. They can have really derivative game design just as long as the graphics and presentation are good. But if you're an indie developer, you have to stand out somehow. And that means making unique content rather than just following what every other game in that genre already does.

>>102
You seriously think autistic 2D shit like Elona can be immersive? I don't find a single quality of this game immersive, based on youtube videos its typical boring indie RPG. The features you claim are immersive, are scripted and boring attempts at realism that fall far below the standard.
A sentence in dialogue isn't immersive, except for "Deep-searching" neckbeard who analyzes every anime frame.

>>103

Nope, by taking a FPS engine(Unreal 4) and adding some RPG elements

Why not Unity? Nothing you're saying makes sense.

decent Action-RPG in a month

An oversatured genre. It would be a mediocre and generic game that nobody would play because if they want an action RPG they have tons of better choices already out there. Especially because you're essentially recommending making a low effort cookie cutter game.

There are tons of shitty and boring games that nobody plays. That's what you're saying people should try to make. I am saying you should care less about 3D graphics or online play and come up with new and unique concepts for game design instead of just cloning another game that already exists.

>>105

I don't find a single quality of this game immersive

Well clearly tons of other people do. There is a wiki with thousands of articles, an active online community, and the videos for it have hundreds of thousands of views. Your personal opinion isn't fact.

Have fun with your generic FPS RPG that nobody will ever download. I am currently working on a kind of experimental game but I'm not even going to bother listing it here since retards like you would just tell me to make a fucking generic FPS thing instead.

Have fun with your generic FPS RPG that nobody will ever download

Overwatch
League Of legends
Dota2
Heroes of Newerth
Fortnite(essentially FPS with minimal RPG elements)

>>108
Yeah, and you didn't make any of those things. And they were all developed by large teams of people. No one person can claim that they made those things in their entirety.

Don't fool yourself, you're not gonna make the next League of Legends. Delusions of grandeur. Those kinds of projects are impossible for solo developers.

Being an indie developer means you have to limit the scope of your projects if you ever want to finish them.

Remember autists, Fortnite is basically printing money with millions of conccurrent active players. Its eassentially a generic, dumb FPS with minimal RPG elements.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/6/17321172/fortnite-epic-games-biggest-game-living-breathing-world-mmo-rpg-battle-royale
You autistic 2D indie RPGs on the other hand will be played by a dozen of neckbeards and be relegated to dustbin of history.

Don't fool yourself, you're not gonna make the next League of Legends. Delusions of grandeur. Those kinds of projects are impossible for solo developers

Yeah, just like Minecraft required a 100M$ and a large game studio to develop.

You can pretend that you can make any kind of game, but there are only 24 hours in a day and you're only one person. Some kinds of games are only possible with a group, not by yourself. Simply based on the time requirements. Online games require customer support and community management staff. Online games also require information security and system administration staff. They also require professional artists and marketing and web development and all that jazz. You are only one person.

If you want to make an indie MMO, it'll look and play like trash and nobody will play it. Because when you spread your time so thinly, you can't be great at any particular aspect of it.

Here's an indie MMO, and it sucks ass and nobody plays it:
http://www.planeshift.it/
And despite it being complete ass, it still took them a ton of time to make.

If you want a good game that you can make by yourself, don't make it online, don't make it 3D. Even if you can use a 3D game engine, you're either going to use stock 3D assets or just make really ugly 3D models. It's easier to make good 2D art.

2D single player is much more doable for indie devs who are working alone. You really can't argue with that point, but you will anyway for some reason.

Those kinds of projects are impossible for solo developers

Dota was originally a warcraft3 map...

>>111
Yeah buddy, you're gonna be the next Notch. Just like how every chucklefuck thinks they're gonna be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Get over yourself. Have fun with your immersive footstep FPS you fucking autist.

Also, Minecraft was not a cookie cutter action RPG.

>>113
Warcraft 3 was not developed by an individual person.

2D single player is much more doable for indie devs who are working alone. You really can't argue with that point, but you will anyway for some reason.

Tons of free 3D engines. Tons of Free 3d assets.
Tons of game templates and ready-made scripts.
You can make a MOBA, FPS, RPG with less content than first Diablo, and people will play as long as its immersive.
You can easily make the next Fortnite.

>>115
It doesn't matter, all MOBAs came from cloning that Warcraft3 map created by hobbyist with zero budget.

>>116

Tons of free 3D engines. Tons of Free 3d assets.

Yeah, and cookie cutter games look and play like shit!
You're not gonna be a billionaire developer by making copycat shit.

You are so delusional it's not even funny. Are you trolling or serious? I'm beginning to think that you're a troll. Whatever. I'm done.

>>118

You're not gonna be a billionaire developer by making copycat shit.

Of course not. I'm going to waste a decade of my time designing autistic 2D worlds with best gameplay in the world for a dedicated group of 30+ fans.

You're not gonna be a billionaire developer by making copycat shit.

Lawsuits

In January 2018, Bluehole's PUBG Corp., the South Korean company behind PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds (PUBG), filed a lawsuit against Epic Games, claiming that Fortnite Battle Royale was a copyright infringement of Battlegrounds; they accused Epic Games of copying PUBG's user interface and game items.[103][104] According to Korea Times, market observers predicted that there would be little likelihood of Bluehole winning the case, as it would be difficult to establish the originality of PUBG in court due to the battle royale game genre, which includes both PUBG and Fornite Battle Royale, being derived from the 2000 Japanese film Battle Royale.[105] The case has since closed, with PUBG Corp. dropping the lawsuit in June 2018 under undisclosed reasons.[106]