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/prog/rider's secret society

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-27 19:08

We should create a club/lodge for programmers. If stonemasons created one many years ago just because they knew how to carve stupid stones and build some basic structures, why we still don't have one?
This is what we need:
A symbol.
A secret handshake.
A set of rules.
An unknown leader.
An unknown sub-leader.
A library with exceptional computer books, a printed version of world4ch's /prog/ (aka The Old Testament), ancient computers, and other relics.
A list of heretic languages carved in stone.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-27 21:05

If stonemasons created one many years ago just because they knew how to carve stupid stones and build some basic structures,

You are an ignorant, retarded, NIGGER.

kill yourself

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-27 21:49

>>2
Why? It's the undeniable truth.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-27 22:05

We should carve bonerlang in wood if you get my drift.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-27 22:37

>>1
* λ
* SYN SYN-ACK ACK, but spoken out loud
* Kill everyone who dares touching the FIOC or the anally prolapsed Javashit
* tdavis
* Mentifex
* http://libgen.net
* Same as those forbidden by the holy rules

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-27 23:22

>>2
I hope I didn't offend you Masonic-chan...

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 1:16

>>1
Although you appear to have written this facetiously, I've been thinking seriously about it for some time. We can do a lot for each other if we organize ourselves, and as you say, with all due deference to the freemasons, if normal people can do this, then it shouldn't be hard for us at all.

I suggest a short list of objectives, in order of importance:

1. Freedom to pursue the arcane arts, embodied in our case in programming, but including science, engineering, pure mathematics, and whatever else interests us
2. Survival of the society
3. Acquisition of arcane power

Although tolerating, say, Java would be a choice I would oppose, I don't think we should limit ourselves by formally rejecting certain languages or principles, or by tying ourselves to ones that are at some point desirable. This practice extends to social issues as well, in that we ought to be above the drudgery of politics. We can best deal with the control-freak bogeymen - personified most forcefully at the moment by SJWs and the NSA - by ignoring and excluding individuals who are more active in the social and political arenas than in those of direct interest to us. While it would not be proper to prevent members from taking a political stance, a political or social cause is not something the organization as a whole should endorse.

I also have a suggestion regarding leadership which I think aids the survival of a society composed of intelligent people. Our activies as an organization will focus largely on the completion of projects, whether they are software or pure research. Project selection can be accomplished by a leaderless organization, in which individual members are free to choose to participate on a project or not as they like. Most likely, some people will always work on their own, while others will usually collaborate. Within the scope of a project, the individual or group responsible for its inception would run the show. This would

A. maximize freedom
B. maximize enjoyment
C. permit collaboration on large projects without affecting A or B
D. limit the influence of new, more naive members, while offering them a wide range of options

and probably other things, I don't know. Valve has done something like this, and the danger has been shown to be the formation of cliques. This is inevitable, but should and can be discouraged, since it is an ape-habit, and not the business of our hypothetical society.

Selecting new members could be accomplished in a manner like the one the freemasons use: invitation of individuals by one or two of our own, followed by some kind of evaluation by other existing members. I hope it goes without saying that non-practitioners - salespeople, laborers, and so on - will be excluded from membership, and should ideally not know the nature of the organization they are serving.

This leads to economic concerns. In order to effectively accomplish goal 1 (freedom to pursue study) without endangering goal 2 (our survival), we must derive profit from some fraction of our projects. However in accepting the limitations of commerce, we limit the degree to which we can fulfill goal 1. I see two ways around this. One is obviously to find projects which are both enjoyable and potentially profitable. The other, which is possible only in a mature organization, is to require initiates to serve a short time in projects not of their choosing. In this manner they would be treated as apprentices, and could additionally evaluated for full membership.

The point of founding this sort of society would be to free us from working on projects which are beneath us while furthering projects which we do value, a goal which is very much in our interests. It is not reasonable to expect that the ideas I have laid out here are perfect, but I hope they form a starting point from which we can build, as OP put it, a secret society; some kind of mages' guild.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 1:18

>>7
So basically the FSF, but with pseudonyms and more public key crypto?

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 1:29

>>8
No. I would like a place which can sustain itself financially (without begging), and I am slightly against anonymity within the society itself. Avoiding notice from the outside isn't hard, and I don't care one way or the other whether people know about us. The FSF also evangelizes free software, which is fine, but I'm much more interested in sharing software amongst ourselves than with outsiders. If anything, we should encourage the notion that computers are inaccessible and hard to understand. We could use that belief to our advantage.

Basically, rather than trying to drag everyone along like the FSF, I think we should cut the dead weight loose and see how high we can go.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 1:39

>>9
but I'm much more interested in sharing software amongst ourselves than with outsiders.
That sounds in contradiction with the prime objective of the hypothetical organization.

If anything, we should encourage the notion that computers are inaccessible and hard to understand. We could use that belief to our advantage.
If indeed the populace doesn't understand anything about computers and programming, politicians can much more easily manipulate them into taking away computer freedom, contradicting the prime objective.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 2:06

>>10
politicians can much more easily manipulate them into taking away computer freedom
That's a valid point. My concern is that politicians don't seem to be terribly interested in what the population is asking for as it stands now. They listen to people with power, so the best way to determine the battle's outcome is to become too powerful to ignore. The FSF is never going to have that much power, because they give their work away to evil people as well as good. They are existentially a neutral force.

I know it sounds ridiculous to talk about this on a 12-person BBS with no one important paying attention, but this is exactly the kind of place these things get started. Given the code I've seen on the /prog/ board, we've got the programmers we need, if we can just agree on something for long enough to get it done. We can gather resources and use them to further our goals. But your ten hours a week and my ten hours a week in isolation will not likely do that. It's only by working together that we are likely to make something happen.

Anyway, if you're talking about what contradicts the primary objective, then you must already be in agreement with it. The only question remaining is whether you're willing to act.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 2:16

>>11
The FSF is never going to have that much power, because they give their work away to evil people as well as good.
I thought we weren't going to get political, what metric are you using to determine evilness?

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 2:33

>>9
If anything, we should encourage the notion that computers are inaccessible and hard to understand. We could use that belief to our advantage.
This is too extreme.

My life goal is to create or otherwise contribute to an understandable computer. A truly understandable computer from the schematics of the keyboard and the display to the CPU. The commercial success of this product is one of the goals. It's not enough for Symbolics to have once made Lisp Machines, they should still be making them today. There is a market here however niche.

By understandable I mean understandable to a non-retard, but understandable nonetheless.

I want computers to stop being used primarily as convenient all-in-one-1800s-state-of-the-art multi devices (i.e. telephone, telegram and television but all in one!) and start being used as a means of moulding abstract things (i.e. programs and the things they represent) like clay.

I don't think its right that the only thing that separates a programmer from a non programmer isn't intelligence or love for ideas but just how much stupid pointless bullshit (x86, UNIX etc.) you're willing to put up with.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 2:47

>>12
Giving away software is itself a political act, and besides that it's a blunt instrument. We can do more by requiring that (at least corporate) customers contribute to our cause by paying for our work. I don't feel that this is political, but if you do, I would rather drop or limit the apolitical requirement than lose the ability to charge companies, for whom I have no particular regard, for the fruits of our labor.

>>13
This is too extreme.
I'll concede that. Given the opinions expressed, I hereby renounce it.

My dream is to create a world where all basic needs - food, shelter, and so on - are met by automated systems. I see that as complementing your goal, in that each could lead more quickly to the other.

Is there one concrete thing you could think of to make it happen?

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 2:59

>>14
Giving away software is itself a political act, and besides that it's a blunt instrument. We can do more by requiring that (at least corporate) customers contribute to our cause by paying for our work. I don't feel that this is political, but if you do, I would rather drop or limit the apolitical requirement than lose the ability to charge companies, for whom I have no particular regard, for the fruits of our labor.
I understand. Not making corporate customers pay for the fruits of our labour would be unfair to ourselves. However, I feel it would contradict our prime objective if we didn't make the source to the software we produce available for all to study and audit. So how about this:
- non-commercial non-governmental users may freely (without any payment) study, redistribute, modify, and execute the software we make for educational and personal not-for-profit things
- everyone else must pay for it (of course, they can study/audit it (which would help computer security) but they can't actually use it without payment)

Is there one concrete thing you could think of to make it happen?
Design and manufacture an understandable (and auditable!) computer like >>13 said.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 3:28

>>15
That's a perfect solution, which in fact already exists here and there.

Design and manufacture an understandable (and auditable!) computer like >>13 said.
Ok, but something we can actually do within, say, six months or a year. I mean that I support that idea, and I'll work on it, but we need to break it into smaller pieces if we ever want to release something. I'm assuming that we're all software people (although if anyone here knows electrical and/or mechanical engineering, please speak up), which means that we're restricted to programming; we also (for now) have to limit ourselves to a narrow goal.

For me, I would like to see some way to rapidly analyse and modify complex data sets. Be aware that the remainder of this paragraph is pulled straight out my ass. However: last year I was working on software that was supposed to recognize faces, facial features, skin, etc. Rather than coding it (as I did), then looking at the results, then going back and tweaking endlessly, I would like to see a way to take a dataset - an image, or, say, spectrographic data, or a sound file, and apply mathematical transformations to it just by issuing some simple commands. Maybe have a "math mode" to plug in equations and an "English mode" where you could name the mathematical functions. Machine learning and a memory of which algorithms chained together worked in similar situations would definitely be an asset. Is that workable? The reason I think it fits loosely into the goal of creating a readily-understood computer is that it makes complex math fairly easy. I could see similar tools being used in electronics design, for example.

Speaking of which, another thought I had a while ago was a "compiler" or "high level language" for electronic circuits. Basically, shove in component X (an IC?) and component Y (I don't know, a Voltage source), say "here are the data sheets, hook these things together at points a, b and c, and make sure nothing goes over/under voltage/current." The software would figure out the resistors, transformers, voltage converters, etc. and bang, instant circuit. Supposedly. If that's not NP-hard, and heck, maybe even if it is. But anyway, that's something that might help too. Thoughts?

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 3:48

>>16
They both sound like cool ideas, and the latter sounds like an amazing idea (as it would finally allow people who have a solid basis in computer science and mathematics but don't know much about electronics to quickly design circuits).

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 4:28

>>16
Speaking of which, another thought I had a while ago was a "compiler" or "high level language" for electronic circuits
Verilog, VHDL, SKILL, SPICE...

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 6:51

A device owned by a person will operate in accordance to the expectations of the person. It will not act as a survallence device for a third party. This is partially helped by the proliferation of peer reviewed open source software.

Information that is free shall remain free and accessible to anyone in the world who wants to find it. Currently exists and doesn't depending on where in the world you are. If it cannot be obtained politically, it should be obtained using technology that helps the internet resist censorship. Contributions to projects like tor and freenet help, but if their users are persecuted then obfuscated protocols and or stenography is needed.

All details of all individuals' digital information should be private and accessible only to them and the ones they specifically choose to share it with. Everyone should have the benefits of cryptography for privacy and safety. User friendly applications providing encryption by default help. But people need to care enough to take the initiative first, so some amount of public activism or education is needed here.

Dependence on centralized infrastructures and services should be minimized. These services should be moved out into p2p models so that those who control the centralized service can't use dependence on the service to control their users. This is aided by the development of p2p substitutes for centralized services like distbb!

That's mostly it for now. I don't expect to be paid for working towards any of these causes.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 9:27

young minds poisoned by the gang of four
cut off from the ancient knowledge
LISP has left the building
we're doing python now
SICP a mere shadow of its past

the next PHP programmer interrupts me
"his" language can do it all anyways
blinded by ignorance
he cannot even see his shackles he built for himself

so we bite our lips just a little longer
learn to avoid the puzzled looks of the youngins
when they see the disappointment in our eyes
when they announce their newest web-project

brogrammers copy pastin code from stackoverflow
unaware of the finer subtleties of the art
the principles of UNIX long forgotten
in a tldr culture that nobody has time for

woe us
little to gain
nothing to lose
trapped in the bottom of the belly the machine
divided
defeated

and the machine is dying

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 9:33

>>20
is this a modification of the lyrics of an existing song?

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 10:05

>>21

No, this was an original by me, yours truly. But inspiration was taken from (at least) these two sources:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/oOYdQOLkqf4

The government is corrupt,
and we're on so many drugs
with the radio on and the curtains drawn.

We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine,
and the machine is bleeding to death.

The sun has fallen down,
and the billboards are all leering,
and the flags are all dead at the top of their poles.

(though I originally had a better version of the song in mind, one with more pump, this is the one I was able to find.)

and:

http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/01/29/mongo-ft/

Look, I realize that we live in a TL;DR culture. I lived through 8 years of a non-reading president along with everyone else. I know that the brogrammers out there are constantly getting texts from their buddies to plan the weekend's broactivities, trying to decide in whose mancave they'll be setting up their lan party, and are thoroughly distracted in between futzing with their smart phones and writing a few lines of code per day by cutting and pasting it from stackoverflow. But it's really not ok to act functionally illiterate when you're not actually illiterate, when an advanced society that once put a man on the moon worked so hard to educate you.

(emphasis mine)

Name: >>22 2014-01-28 10:34

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 10:35

>>22
Not all of us are Americans.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 10:37

>>20
The principles of UNIX? I'm a Lisp programmer, I don't give a rat's butt about the principles of UNIX.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 12:34

>>25
And your LISP interpreter runs on what exactly? NT?
inb4 Symbolics

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 12:57

>>18
I was using programming language more as a metaphor; I had something more graphical in mind, like EagleCAD but doing more for the designer. The aim would be to ease the design process for an expert, but also to educate a novice in why various components were needed.

Verilog and VHDL seem to focus mainly on logic gates; they are more like real programming languages. SPICE is closer to what I had in mind, but only models circuits handed to it. I would like to see about taking the next obvious step and smooth the process of circuit design by allowing the designer to work with higher-level abstractions. As with programming, this would reduce the flexibility available, and the old guard would often turn their noses up at it, but I suspect it could also be used to do a lot of work fairly quickly, making it appealing to a lot of people.

Do you have experience in this field? I was just throwing the idea out, and I don't have much knowledge of electronics itself.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 19:44

>>8
The FSF? more like the CCC!

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 19:55

>>27
Not really. I know the basic physics, and I designed a crappy microcoded 4-bit register machine with an ALU as part of my formal education. But that's it.

There's plenty of really very very good EDA tools out there. Cadence's offerings I hear are the very best, although I have not used them. GNU Electric is little known but highly regarded (developed at Sun, used to design Sun products (now Oracle)), and very easy to use (I have used it).

I've tried using the gEDA suite but that's the usual UNIX style small is beautiful batch processing with text interface bullshit i.e. unusable efficiently by humans, terrible to interface for programmers. There's KiCAD which I haven't tried using, but seems nicer than gEDA.

There used to be New Schematic for Symbolics' Genera...

To get started you'd probably want to read http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/ which uses gEDA tools. Then you'd want to read the bible i.e. "The art of electronics", or maybe read "Practical electronics for inventors" before that. When you read the latter two books it's probably good to follow along with whatever EDA tools you choose (might be a good idea to choose two of them and compare).

There's lots of examples to study from: http://opencores.org//.

With specific regards to the CPU the PDP-10 is interesting, as is the SPARC for contrast. Symbolics' patents are absurdly and stupidly detailed...

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/symbolics/patents/4887235_3600_patent.pdf

>>26
It's not ``LISP'' (and hasn't been for a while), it's Common Lisp, and it's a system, including, but not just, an interpreter. In fact, I don't remember ever evaluating (setf sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* :interpret), so I probably have never used the interpreter. It runs on a wide variety of computers and operating systems including the world's favorite UNIX and VMS clones.

I use Linux myself, and I suppose I am grateful, but in no way do I think it's ideal or even close to it. The UNIX philosophy or the UNIX way should be something to be abhorred and disgusted by, embraced only out of practical necessity for money in today's world, not something to idolize.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 20:19

>>29
not something to idolize

really??

From "The Unix programming environment":
Even though the UNIX system introduces a number of innovative programs and techniques, no single program or idea makes it work well. Instead, what makes it effective is the approach to programming, a philosophy of using the computer. Although that philosophy can't be written down in a single sentence, at its heart is the idea that the power of a system comes more from the relationships among programs than from the programs themselves. Many UNIX programs do quite trivial things in isolation, but, combined with other programs, become general and useful tools.

And then also, from "The Bell System Technical Journal" (1978):
(i) Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new features.
(ii) Expect the output of every program to become the input to another, as yet unknown, program. Don't clutter output with extraneous information. Avoid stringently columnar or binary input formats. Don't insist on interactive input.
(iii) Design and build software, even operating systems, to be tried early, ideally within weeks. Don't hesitate to throw away the clumsy parts and rebuild them.
(iv) Use tools in preference to unskilled help to lighten a programming task, even if you have to detour to build the tools and expect to throw some of them out after you've finished using them.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 20:25

>>30
Yes, really.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 21:54

>>31
Well, I disagree.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 21:59

>>32
What else can you expect from a linux user? Go BSD or go home.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 22:10

>>33
There's not that much difference between Linux and BSD.

Programs are still binary blobs. The interface between programs is still byte streams. Files and file systems still exist...

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 22:11

>>32
Have you ever used Genera or a Smalltalk environment?

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-28 23:53

I can't believe what I am reading here, are you against the KISS principle? what kind of hipsters are you?!

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-29 0:03

>>34
Yes we get it, you're autistic.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-29 0:05

>>37
suck my anus

>>36
False dichotomy.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-29 0:15

Telecomix is a really cool secret club: they have a symbol, secret members, and amazing project.
The old cypherpunks mailing list was kind of a secret order for cryptographers, and they really changed everything.
The Chaos Computer Club in Germany is the oldest computer club in the world, and they are awesome.

I believe that /prog/ have enough net-culture to start a new secret society.
If you really are into it you should read The Illuminatus trilogy, and Discordianism stuff like Principia Discordia. But I suppose you already did.

Name: Anonymous 2014-01-29 0:22

>>36
I am not a hipster, I am a sorcerer who summons the spirits of the computer with his spells.

There is nothing KISS about UNIX. A more apt description for what UNIX adheres to is KIRR or Keep It Retarded, Retard.

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